A Question for Calvinust here (Part 2)

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

Hello PT,
Thanks for this response and solid question:thumbs:

So here's a question from someone outside the Cal camp: How does Calvinism view the notion that God commands all men everywhere to repent

First off....Cals believe this:thumbs:

In other words this is so clearly stated that any action, teaching, or any other question must start here. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, they are responsible to live holy lives worshipping him everyday 24/7.
Before any other question is addressed this fact must be in evidence.
Any subsequent question will not overthrow this.

when the same God does not move within them to make them repent?

You are suggesting that God is a debtor to man? Does God have to ..."move" within them? men are responsible if God moves within them or not:thumbs:

PT, it is called MERCY and GRACE because God is not obligated to move on all men everywhere. He does not have to move on any man anywhere, except He has obligated Himself to His own Covenant promise.

You quoted Matt 23:37, and I'll be honest I don't often see Cals use that verse to back up their theology,

It is a great verse .Cals have to deal with all the verses PT.
There are NOT going to be souls in hell who wanted to be in heaven on God's terms but were not allowed to.
I do not read where Noah beat people away from the doorway of the ark and did not allow them in.
Jesus preached and loved people more than anyone ever has, and depraved man hated and put Him to death.

If every person wanted to repent and believe the gospel in the next 47 minutes and believe it savingly.....God would not stop them PT.

The problem is man in unable and unwilling to do so.
In the words of one pastor...man has a bad record, and a bad heart.

No...they do not want to come, they are unwilling, and without the Spirit...unable to come.

Unless you are going to say that God must save every single person for whatever reason you suppose....you cannot make any such demand.:thumbs:

as it shows that God was willing to draw them unto Himself (and given what I understand about Calvinism

,
The gathering here is not the effectual call at all. It is that no one who would come on God's terms would be cast away. These persons who would come do not exist however. That is why Jesus comments as he does showing men are fully responsible.

and yet the people did not come to Him.

sad indeed...they have eternity to think about it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Same goes for Cal preachers preaching just like the non-Cals. Begging the lost to choose Christ......

No Christian wants lost men to stay lost.

I never studied Arminian theology so I cannot speak to these things you raise.

ok...well then take a look at it.

However, I would find it very deceiving to tell a person they must repent

God has commanded that all men everywhere repent. It is no deception.

and not at the same time tell them they cannot unless God makes them.

This is not a requirement, but if the situation presents itself ...I have no problem explaining such things to a person in quite an evangelistic
way:thumbs:

Telling half truths is a trademark of Satan.

The only time I see this is when non cals on a tract quote half verses such as...and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
You have seen this on tracts correct? they leave out,, All that the Father gives to me...shall come to me,,

You want to be a Calvinist preacher, then don't play around with their souls, tell them the whole truth as you see it.

To explain that sinners need the blood of Jesus to cover their sin, does not require a full doctrinal exposition of all things systematic does it?

Hey Steaver...does you wife need to have an engineer describe the specs of the car engine before she gets in, turns the key on, and drives to Weis Market?

I don't think I warp anything you guys say. I mean I have the exact quotes and provide them and you guys never repent of what you say. Icon makes it perfectly clear he believe no TULIP equals no Sheep. I give exact word for word quotes and you guys act like you never said it. Puzzling indeed.

I can assure you Steaver.....goats do not believe in tulip, in fact they do not believe anything...that is why they are goats..jn10:26:thumbs:

Then you would have to show were I ever stated God was passive in one's salvation......I also hold to OSAS...which causes many to call me a Calvinist. Go figure

All believers are cals Steaver.....some just do not know it yet

 

[Iconoclast]

My walk with God never changed. I witness to the lost the same. I preach Christ in the stand, just as I always did before.

You just take what we say and it warp it into that which we didn't...myself, Iconoclast, Reformed et al. You're like a bull with his head down, pawing the dirt. You're not out for debate...only to defame...

Well said Con1......the broken record, the not so fast friend, and now the bull with the horns showing:applause::applause::applause:

 

[Iconoclast]

Reformed

With the difference that the Calvinist preacher does not conflate the means with God's sovereign work of election. We call on all who hear to respond but know that all cannot.

The results belong to God:thumbs:

The Arminian's theology takes God out of the equation in regards to salvation. It makes Him passive

.

Well posted here:applause: This is a main issue , perhaps the heart of it.No one wants to see it put this way.....but that is the teaching if consistent.
An Arminian who is inconsistent with this...is a Cal in training:thumbs:

God can do nothing unless the sinner chooses. The Arminian preacher finds himself convincing instead of convicting.

That is what Finney did. He had to become a salesman to "win souls". It's the same thing when there is an altar call with 10 stanzas of "Just as I am"; it is preying on the emotions , not trusting in the converting work of the Spirit.

yes...sincere but wrong:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

[/LIST]I believe the Father draws, the Holy Spirit convicts and points to Jesus Christ, and then regenerates those who call upon the name of the Lord. That is hardly "passive".

you are getting there Steaver....:thumbs: this is more than 1 point,lol....connect the dots Steaver

So your comments about Arminians may be correct if so be they believe God is indeed passive in salvation, but like I said, I never studied it, but if they believe as you said, then I am not one by any stretch of the imagination.

No one who is thinking correctly would be one Steaver...that is why we are contending with you:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I am advocating the obvious point that Paul is telling the truth in Romans 2.

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Romans 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

this chapter is in the context of the "Kindness of God" and of "repentance"

6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


Next we see the NEW Covenant promise of the LAW written on the heart in Heb 8 found in Romans 2 for the gentiles who have no Bible at all.



13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


In that last verse above we find "Gospel" Judgment - not "no Gospel at all" as some have imagined.


And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In that quote above we find the example of saved Gentiles who condemn those Jews that are lost and the work of the Holy Spirit on the saved - both Jew and Gentile - which is how the gentiles ended up with the Romans 2:13-16 Law of God written on their hearts - in true New Covenant fashion.


"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31


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you have chosen to "redefine terms" again -- now calling Romans 2 "works based salvation' so as to ignore the word of God at that point.

But I say that Romans 2 demonstrates the very Gospel point you claim does not exist when it comes to your eskimo example - and so now to oppose the Bible on that point - you call Paul's Romans 2 teaching "works based salvation"??

BobRyan;


no need to lie Bob....I do not believe in a works salvation. What I am sure of is that you have no idea what Romans 2 is about.




No...your understanding is faulty....it is a made up novelty. It is not speaking of saved gentiles at all...that is not the point.
Without Jesus no one gets saved....gentiles do not save themselves by law keeping....this has nothing to do with the discussion of jn 12....

you have shown clearly you cannot support your statements on All mankind being drawn....you have drifted into fantasy instead of reality....

you have no scripture to support your view

this is not in romans 2...that is not taught there...this Is fantasy

you have not answered a single point where Romans 2 refutes your claims.

Were we "not supposed to notice"???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

you have not answered a single point where Romans 2 refutes your claims.

Were we "not supposed to notice"???

in Christ,

Bob

your post number 102 was answered in post 106

I answered you on Romans two
that its not speaking about Saved Gentiles at all if you really want me to open it up I'll do it for you and just embarrass you to show that you have no understanding whatsoever of what Romans two is talking about
your completely clueless on the whole chapter

 

[BobRyan]

No it wasn't -- I proved that with post #146 where your post 106 is quoted in full and shown to not address a single point made from Romans 2.

You will have to engage in at least "some" Bible study if you want to answer the post regarding Romans 2.

 

[BobRyan]

An answer from silence is no answer at all. nature does not save...Pt offered you from rom 10 how can they hear unless they be sent?
.

you have to read the actual thread on that point first.

Originally Posted by PreachTony
You alluded to Romans 10. Consider this passage from that chapter:


Originally Posted by Romans 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


In what way does nature "preach the gospel of peace" in order to convict someone to the point of calling on the name of the Lord? I've spent a lot of time outside, and not once has a walk through the forest impressed upon me the need to repent of my sins. You know what has? The preached word of God.

As for trying to tie Romans 2 into some sort of naturalistic Judeo-Christianity...The verse there dealing with the word "nature" in the KJV reads "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Rom 2:14. This doesn't mean that something in the natural world convinced them of the Law of God. Instead, it means that the Gentiles just naturally did things that were found within the Law. The Gentiles may have recognized that it was wrong to murder. They weren't given the Law of God, but they still held to the commandment, even without knowing it.

If you look in Romans 1 you'll actually see that, for some men, when God revealed himself through nature, making Himself manifest to them, they did not recognize Him as God, but instead glorified themselves instead of God.

In Romans 1 there is not one single pagan/unbliever excluded from the sweeping statement that 'they are without excuse" because --

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
...28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


And in Romans 10 we have

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”


Paul quotes from the Psalms 19 regarding nature itself -



Ps 19


1The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,



Paul argues for the voice of nature in conjunction with the Gospel even in the OT in Romans 10


18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;


The point is that at the very least this shows God's reach is such that it goes out to the entire world - and all are without excuse - none can say they were not enabled to choose.


John the baptizer can say he died before figuring out all the end-time scenarios you have at your fingertips and many others can say they died without having John's level of the "map book" explained to them. But that does not stop God from enabling their free will.