This is good!
Pride is responsible for much destruction, and a haughty spirit can be found in many that fall.
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A question for freewillers.
- Thread starter SovereignMercy
- Start date
This is good!
Pride is responsible for much destruction, and a haughty spirit can be found in many that fall.
I don't care.
I have read this sentiment several times. But I do not see that transition as common. They begin arrogant and just get worse over the years.
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SovereignMercy
Member
I've believed in the doctrines of grace for over 30 years. I'm not ashamed of them. I'm not proud of myself, I fought against the truth, and very thankfully lost. Of course there is a day fast approaching when all of our true motives will be revealed.
I know several people who no longer come to this forum and I may soon join them, time will tell.
People on this forum and around this world that attribute the least part of their perceived change to themselves are the proud and arrogant ones. Salvation is either all of God or all of man. There is no middle ground.
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
I know several people who no longer come to this forum and I may soon join them, time will tell.
People on this forum and around this world that attribute the least part of their perceived change to themselves are the proud and arrogant ones. Salvation is either all of God or all of man. There is no middle ground.
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
No matter what God requires from man as a response to the Gospel it is all of God. The problem with Calvinism is it defines the sovereignty of God poorly. God is still sovereign even when He requires a response in faith.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I listen to those who come along and broad brush and generalize Calvinists as arrogant &c. It's bewildering and is actually nothing more or less than slander of other brothers for self exaltation. It's a mere walking and working in and of the flesh and parading it.
In so doing they are doing nothing more or less than showing themselves to be above others and better than others. It's the entire objective and is a pat on their own backs in and of themselves.
'Oh yes, those guys are the arrogant ones' with a not so veiled 'But not me' implication -- nothing short of the Pharisee and Publican example.
In so doing they are doing nothing more or less than showing themselves to be above others and better than others. It's the entire objective and is a pat on their own backs in and of themselves.
'Oh yes, those guys are the arrogant ones' with a not so veiled 'But not me' implication -- nothing short of the Pharisee and Publican example.
Amen! and well said.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
You mean you believe you have a choice? That goes against your determinism, does it not?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Quite.....
Angry (Fake) Calvinists
...So, that leads to my question: why do you think some Calvinists are so angry?
I know what you're talking about, but honestly, I think it has nothing to do with their Calvinism, and everything to do with their faith. I don't mean the object of their faith-- Jesus. And, I don't mean "the faith once for all delivered to the saints," but their faith. Of course, it works this way in me as well. When I'm cranky, complaining, or whatever corruption is bubbling to the surface, it's not my confession or theology that is in error, but my heart. When I am proud or petty it's my heart that is out of alignment with my theology.
Sure, I agree with that. While it obviously isn't true of all Calvinists there is a disproportionate number of angry Calvinists compared to other groups. Do you see that?
Well, yes I see that. I think we all see it. The question for me is why are we seeing that, and what exactly are we seeing? Why are there more angry, loud and proud, combative Calvinists than other kinds of Christians? I think, and I could be wrong, but I think it's a combination of a few things.
One is that Cavinism, as a biblical and beautiful understanding of God, man, and redemption, is often very exciting to those newly acquainted with it. Many who have grown in the faith with very little theology and later discover Reformed theology are simply over-zealous. They are pumped about the truth and want everyone to see what they see. We call this the "cage stage." Some of us, and I was one of them, would benefit from being locked up in a cage for a few years until our heart can catch up with our head. More realistically, good discipleship helps with that.
Second, I think some who find their way into the Reformed faith are angry for having been denied a solid theological foundation in their past. They feel as if they've wasted years of their life, or the church has let them down. So, they're angry about that, sometimes even at their past self, and it just bleeds over into this new passion they have for doctrine. I get that, but it's unfortunate. Simple gratitude for growing theologically is a better response to cultivate.
Third, knowledge can and does "puff up" as Paul says. And while this is a shared problem with other systems of theology, it is certainly a reality among the Reformed. It's ironic though. The knowledge of God's sovereignty and grace, and of man's total depravity and absolute dependence on God for mercy, should produce love and passion characterized by humility and meekness. And that gets to what we are really seeing. When we Calvinists are ungracious, unnecessarily combative, proud, and arrogant, we are not being true Calvinists. We are posers.
That's why I think we need to bring the discussion back to the heart. Angry Calvinists exist when there is some kind of short-circuit between head and heart....
http://www.edstetzer.com/2011/09/joe-thorn-and-fake-calvinists.html
...So, that leads to my question: why do you think some Calvinists are so angry?
I know what you're talking about, but honestly, I think it has nothing to do with their Calvinism, and everything to do with their faith. I don't mean the object of their faith-- Jesus. And, I don't mean "the faith once for all delivered to the saints," but their faith. Of course, it works this way in me as well. When I'm cranky, complaining, or whatever corruption is bubbling to the surface, it's not my confession or theology that is in error, but my heart. When I am proud or petty it's my heart that is out of alignment with my theology.
Sure, I agree with that. While it obviously isn't true of all Calvinists there is a disproportionate number of angry Calvinists compared to other groups. Do you see that?
Well, yes I see that. I think we all see it. The question for me is why are we seeing that, and what exactly are we seeing? Why are there more angry, loud and proud, combative Calvinists than other kinds of Christians? I think, and I could be wrong, but I think it's a combination of a few things.
One is that Cavinism, as a biblical and beautiful understanding of God, man, and redemption, is often very exciting to those newly acquainted with it. Many who have grown in the faith with very little theology and later discover Reformed theology are simply over-zealous. They are pumped about the truth and want everyone to see what they see. We call this the "cage stage." Some of us, and I was one of them, would benefit from being locked up in a cage for a few years until our heart can catch up with our head. More realistically, good discipleship helps with that.
Second, I think some who find their way into the Reformed faith are angry for having been denied a solid theological foundation in their past. They feel as if they've wasted years of their life, or the church has let them down. So, they're angry about that, sometimes even at their past self, and it just bleeds over into this new passion they have for doctrine. I get that, but it's unfortunate. Simple gratitude for growing theologically is a better response to cultivate.
Third, knowledge can and does "puff up" as Paul says. And while this is a shared problem with other systems of theology, it is certainly a reality among the Reformed. It's ironic though. The knowledge of God's sovereignty and grace, and of man's total depravity and absolute dependence on God for mercy, should produce love and passion characterized by humility and meekness. And that gets to what we are really seeing. When we Calvinists are ungracious, unnecessarily combative, proud, and arrogant, we are not being true Calvinists. We are posers.
That's why I think we need to bring the discussion back to the heart. Angry Calvinists exist when there is some kind of short-circuit between head and heart....
http://www.edstetzer.com/2011/09/joe-thorn-and-fake-calvinists.html
convicted1
Guest
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Angry and painting with a broad brush... nice combination. Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black, but I may be wrong.
I have read more angry words cast by both sides in the debate on this board than I care to see again. Perhaps, even at times when a point isn't recognized, I too have responded in the flesh and used harsher terms - which I later regret.
BUT, if ever there is a group who goad, liable, and slander it is the non-cal groups.
Consider the typical debate. Inevitably the non-cal side degenerate into slamming a poster for quoting some confession or creed which lists multiple supporting verses. Or, the non-cal side will drag out the life and living of Calvin attempting to discredit Reformed Theology. Or, the non-cal will engage a combative tone - taking to task the grammar, spelling, or word usage in attempts of showing how the Calvinistic thinker is ignorant and therefore must by implication be short sighted in doctrine, also. And I could go on with other examples.
I am not saying that the Cal side doesn't have their times of over the top rants.
I am saying that the problem of temperate attitudinal posts is not all non-cal's to claim. Rather, like a teeter-totter, there is enough intemperate attitudinal posts to weight either side to the vaulting benefit of the other.
Besides there is one problem the non-cals have that they just won't admit.
They are jealous because the Reformed Theological folks (especially those who are Premil) are right and have all the Scriptural proof needed to back up their doctrine. Envy is such a evil attitude.
BUT, if ever there is a group who goad, liable, and slander it is the non-cal groups.
Consider the typical debate. Inevitably the non-cal side degenerate into slamming a poster for quoting some confession or creed which lists multiple supporting verses. Or, the non-cal side will drag out the life and living of Calvin attempting to discredit Reformed Theology. Or, the non-cal will engage a combative tone - taking to task the grammar, spelling, or word usage in attempts of showing how the Calvinistic thinker is ignorant and therefore must by implication be short sighted in doctrine, also. And I could go on with other examples.
I am not saying that the Cal side doesn't have their times of over the top rants.
I am saying that the problem of temperate attitudinal posts is not all non-cal's to claim. Rather, like a teeter-totter, there is enough intemperate attitudinal posts to weight either side to the vaulting benefit of the other.
Besides there is one problem the non-cals have that they just won't admit.
They are jealous because the Reformed Theological folks (especially those who are Premil) are right and have all the Scriptural proof needed to back up their doctrine. Envy is such a evil attitude.
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