A Question For Non-Calvinists

[Pastor_Bob]

Actually, maybe this is what I need to understand:

Can you explain this to me?

Sure, my friend. In the verse you offered as "God having chosen who is called," all that God is choosing is the means by which men are called.
I Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (KJV)

God chose the "foolish things" - the preaching of the gospel (vs. 21) - to call men to salvation. He has chosen to use the "weak things" - the ignorant and unlearned disciples (Acts 4:13) - to confound the religious scholars.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Thanks for explaining that @Pastor_Bob, this helps me to better understand your position.

This way of reading it does still seem strained to me though, mainly because verse 27 starts with the word "but". This word sets up to describe the "instead" of what was just stated, not to explain why it was stated.

Example: "for I am not come to call the righteous, but (instead) sinners to repentance."

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But (instead) God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"

To convey the meaning that you offered, it seems like verse 27 would need to start out with "because" rather than "but".

How do you think Paul's use of the word "called" in this passage relates to his use of it in Romans 8:30?

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

In this passage, it's clear that God's choice is directly responsible for the call.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

How do you think Paul's use of the word "called" in this passage relates to his use of it in Romans 8:30?

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

In this passage, it's clear that God's choice is directly responsible for the call.

It is a given that true believers are, many times, referred to as being "called" in the Word of God.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (KJV)
I Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
(KJV)
I Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (KJV)

There is a simple reason for this - true believers have answered the call.
II Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (KJV)

Only those who respond to the gospel call are referred to as "the called."
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (KJV)

Consider this in light of the verses discussed earlier:
I Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (KJV)

My position is that "the called" are simply those who hear, and respond to the preaching of the cross and Christ crucified.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

@Pastor_Bob, In all of the verses that you quoted, the subject is God calling, not us responding.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my own experience there was a lapse of time between God calling me, and me finally submitting to answer that call. There was a period of time that I was "called" by God, but hadn't yet chosen to respond to that call.

Do you believe that you were called to preach at the point that you actually began preaching, or when God first impressed it on your heart to preach?

Some of the clearest proof texts for eternal security connect our security, not with the fact that we responded (or continue to respond) to His call, but simply with the fact that He called us. Besides Romans 8:30, consider these:

"And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called..." Romans 9:23-24

"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:8-9

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called" Jude 1:1

 

[Gup20]

Mat 22:14 NASB 14 "For many are called, but few [are] chosen."

So the real question is how does God "choose".

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.
.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The most common objection to Deuteronomy 30 comes from those who say this is part of the covenant of The Law and doesn’t pertain to the covenant of faith. However, Paul sets the record straight about the nature of the choice offered by Deuteronomy 30 in Romans 10:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone [for] the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes [in it] will not be disturbed.​

This human choice in Deuteronomy 30 comes before regeneration, and after one has believed.

Ephesians 1:1
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:17
“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?”​

I don’t think complete free will is Biblical. I think it’s clear that, as it pertains to Salvation, God gives human beings a distinct, binary choice. Choose life or choose death. It does nothing to damage the sovereignty of God to command humans to choose between two options. For example, if I told my child “you can have pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast… but FYI, the pancakes are awesome,” I don’t lose my sovereignty over breakfast. My child cannot, for example, choose steak and eggs. So who determines breakfast – me or my child? I would say I have determined breakfast, and not my child because I have the ingredients for only those two choices. However, so has my child played a role.

​

 

[kyredneck]

Read the passage in the ESV, it does not seem the least bit Calvinistic.

???

26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor 1​

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Welcome to the conversation @Gup20,

Just something to consider:

You mentioned Romans 10:8,

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach"

But it's important to note that not everyone has "the word" in their heart:

"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not." John 5:38

Who is it that has the word "engrafted" in them?

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures... Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls" James 1:18, 21

We don't have the word in us until God births us with it. This word in our hearts is conviction of the truth, the gift of faith, dealt by God. This word is the very thing that God "calls" us through. When we repent and receive this engrafted word, we receive the "earnest" of our "inheritance" (an advance on our inheritance). We get to experience our salvation here and now.

 

[Gup20]

Welcome to the conversation @Gup20,

Just something to consider:

You mentioned Romans 10:8,

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach"

But it's important to note that not everyone has "the word" in their heart:

"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not." John 5:38

Who is it that has the word "engrafted" in them?

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures... Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls" James 1:18, 21

We don't have the word in us until God births us with it. This word in our hearts is conviction of the truth, the gift of faith, dealt by God. This word is the very thing that God "calls" us through. When we repent and receive this engrafted word, we receive the "earnest" of our "inheritance" (an advance on our inheritance). We get to experience our salvation here and now.

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Even the lost have God’s law on their hearts so that they are without excuse.

Romans 10:14-18 (NASB) 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

 

[37818]

Even the lost have God’s law on their hearts so that they are without excuse.

The whole human race inherited the divine knowledge of good and evil from first parents (Genesis 3:22). The cause of our "sinful nature" as it has been so named.

 

[Gup20]

The whole human race inherited the divine knowledge of good and evil from first parents (Genesis 3:22). The cause of our "sinful nature" as it has been so named.

I agree. Many forget the knowledge of good & evil includes “good”.

Hebrews 2:15-16 (NASB) 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

I think the fear of death is the root cause of our sin nature & enslavement to the sin nature. Of course death is the result of sin.

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

1 John 4:18 (NASB)
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

[37818]

Many forget the knowledge of good & evil includes “good”.

While it is the knowledge of evil which causes us to have the "sinful nature," it is that knowledge of good by which we condemn ourselves before God (1 John 3:20). For which we need our Savior so we are not condemned (John 5:24; 1 John 3:23).

 

[1689Dave]

If God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, we must choose to be stupid along with choosing to believe.

 

[Twiceborn]

If God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, we must choose to be stupid along with choosing to believe.

God's the one who did the "choosing".

James 2:5 (ESV) Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?


American Poverty Map:

American Bible Belt:

 

[Gup20]

If God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, we must choose to be stupid along with choosing to believe.

Proverbs 10:14 (NASB)
Wise men store up knowledge, But with the mouth of the foolish, ruin is at hand.

Proverbs 11:29 (NASB)
He who troubles his own house will inherit wind, And the foolish will be servant to the wisehearted.

Proverbs 1:7 (NASB)
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[Twiceborn]

1 Corinthians 1:26
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

It's fact. That doesn't mean that God wants us to remain foolish though.