A Question For Non-Lordship Proponents

[Marcia]

What would you say if someone asked you this?

"If I become a Christian, do I have to stop sleeping with my girlfriend?"

I posted my answer to this, but let me say I know of several cases where people were saved while living with a partner (in one case, it was 2 lesbians). In time (anywhere from a few weeks to about 2 months), the believer was convicted and stopped living with the partner. Or the believer became convicted, struggled with it for awhile, and then left the partner.

God is more than able to save anyone at any point - some are convicted before they are saved, some while they are saved, some after.

When I was saved, I did not even believe in sin. I kid you not. All I knew was that I had been going on a false spiritual path. And it took me over a year to understand what sin really was and longer to see what evil means to God.

 

[IronWill]

Did you read the answer I wrote out to this question, as I would say it? (And as I've said it to people).

Where and when did I say I agree with the "Jesus you will be get out of hell free card but I don't want to obey...etc."???????

You are making a false dichotomy. I do not agree with this statement nor do I agree with "You must give up your sin." See my previous posts and the one I wrote out the answer on.

I don't know anyone who says it's okay to trust Christ and still hope have a sinful lifestyle. This is a straw man.

A: I didn't say that you agreed with that statement. I was merely clarifying my position.

B: I have not set up a straw-man, since there are people who believe just that, as I spoke of in my OP. No straw-man here, except for the one that you just created in stating that I had made a straw-man.

 

[IronWill]

I posted my answer to this, but let me say I know of several cases where people were saved while living with a partner (in one case, it was 2 lesbians). In time (anywhere from a few weeks to about 2 months), the believer was convicted and stopped living with the partner. Or the believer became convicted, struggled with it for awhile, and then left the partner.

God is more than able to save anyone at any point - some are convicted before they are saved, some while they are saved, some after.

When I was saved, I did not even believe in sin. I kid you not. All I knew was that I had been going on a false spiritual path. And it took me over a year to understand what sin really was and longer to see what evil means to God.

I'm not understanding how someone can be saved and not believe that they're a sinner. If you don't understand that you're a sinner, then how can you understand Salvation?

 

[Marcia]

I'm not understanding how someone can be saved and not believe that they're a sinner. If you don't understand that you're a sinner, then how can you understand Salvation?

I don't know. I just knew that I had been on a path going away from the true God and true Jesus. I realized why Jesus died on the cross (for the first time it made sense), and that I needed a Savior or I would be eternally separated from God. No one explained this to me. I had been reading the Bible and it happened while reading Matthew 8. I had been to Sunday School when younger but had rejected christianity in high school and explored and practiced eastern religions, the New Age, and the supernatural. I knew I needed forgiveness because I had gone against God, but the word "sin" was not in my mind nor did I comprehend it fully.

To understand what sin is, one has to know who one is sinning against. Sin means nothing if you don't believe in God, or don't accept the biblical God, or have a view of God as a warm, fuzzy Santa Claus. Until you fully comprehend the holiness of God, sin means nothing or very little.

Savlation for me was seeing who Jesus really was and knowing I needed him because I had been wrong. Being wrong was something I could grasp, even though sin was not a clear concept. As I came to know God better through Jesus Christ, my understanding of the enormity of sin grew, but it took awhile.

http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/AboutCANA_SpiritualJourney.html

 

[Marcia]

B: I have not set up a straw-man, since there are people who believe just that, as I spoke of in my OP. No straw-man here, except for the one that you just created in stating that I had made a straw-man.

But saying it to me as though I believed it and that makes it straw man. It's your statement and it's in a post to me. :tongue3:

 

[Lou Martuneac]

I'm saying I don't think that saying to an unbeliever "You have to give up sin in order to be saved" is biblical. Is that how one is saved? We give up something and then God saves us?

You have fairly accurately defined Lordship Salvation.

“The gospel call of Jesus was a call to forsake sin as much as it was a summons to believe in Him. It was a call to turn from sin. From His first message to His last, the Savior’s theme was calling sinners to turn from their sin, to embrace God, to pursue righteousness. It was not only that they had a new perspective on who He was, but that they turn from sin to follow Him.” (John MacArthur: The Call to Repentance, Part 3 from the four sermon series on The Lordship of Christ.)

Salvation conditioned on the resolve to “forsake sin.”


LM

 

[IronWill]

You have fairly accurately defined Lordship Salvation. Salvation conditioned on the resolve to “forsake sin.”


LM

Do you ever quote anybody besides John MacArthur?

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Do you ever quote anybody besides John MacArthur?

The Apostle Paul,

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed," (Gal. 1:8-9)

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple," (Rom. 16:17-18)

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us...And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother," (2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15).

Dr. Charles Ryrie,

"The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life cannot both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is a false gospel and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel (Gal. 1:6-9), and this is a very serious matter." (Balancing the Christian Life, p. 170.)

LM

 

[John of Japan]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the new birth yet. The lost person is literally unable to stop his sin until he is born again. It's useless to say to him, "Yes, you have to give up sleeping with your girlfriend after you get saved." He can't comprehend the answer because he is dead in tresspasses and sins.

The excellent textbook by J. C. Macaulay and Robert H. Belton, Personal Evangelism, gives this advice for such a case in Ch. 20, "Miscellaneous Objections" (pp. 187-188):

A. “I CANNOT GIVE UP MY SIN.”
1. Ask Him Whether He Wants to Be Free from Sin.
Ask the person who has given this as a reason why he cannot come to Christ, if he really wants to be free from his sinful habits. Jesus said: “Men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.” He also said: “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” Determine if the individual is desirous of living in his sin, or if he is in earnest about desiring to come to Christ but is under the impression he must free himself of sinful habits, which thing he knows he cannot do.

2. Show Him Christ Is Only Answer.
Agree with the fact that he cannot give up his sin, for the Lord Jesus Christ said: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [slave] of sin.” A slave in Jesus’ day was never capable of setting himself free, he had to be freed by someone else. So Jesus continued: “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.” He is very able to set the prisoner free, and He loves to do it.

3. Point Him to Christ.
If the person is sincerely seeking, point him to Christ who said He is able to set a person free. Remind him that Christ is now seated at the right hand of the Father, and that He is able to save to the uttermost all that draw nigh unto God by Him, because He ever liveth to make intercession for them.

4. Assure Him of New Life.
Another fact to give this one is that when one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ he becomes a new person, for the Bible says: “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” He receives a new life, he has a new destiny, a new spirit, even the Holy Spirit, comes in to dwell in his heart. In Christ he has died to sin, and he is to reckon himself dead to sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord,’ He now has a new indwelling power to enable him to give up his Sin.

 

[EdSutton]

Wow... I'm shocked that a seminary actually taught what you described. However, I suppose I shouldn't be shocked anymore.

FTR, IronWill stated he was taught this at a Bible College, not a seminary.

Ed

 

[David Lamb]

I attended a Bible college that taught much of what non-Lordshippers teach. One of the things they taught in evangelism classes was that if we were witnessing to somebody, and they started talking about sin that they would have to give up if they became a Christian, that we were to tell them that they didn't have to change anything as a Christian. In fact, we were encouraged to tell them that they would never have to set foot inside a church, crack open a Bible, or anything after Salvation. All they had to do was pray the prayer. All they had to do was "ask Jesus to save them and really mean it."

Now the other day, I was witnessing to a young man about my age that I work with. I was asking him questions concerning religion, and he got uncomfortable and defensive after a few minutes of talking. Finally he said "I can't become a Christian." I inquired of him "why not?" He responded saying "If I become a Christian, then I can't go out and get drunk every weekend. I can't sleep with my girlfriend, I can't smoke my cigarettes, I can't do any of the stuff that I like to do. I LIKE MY SIN TOO MUCH TO GET SAVED." He realized, as an unregenerate man, that salvation meant obedience to Christ, and leaving his sin behind. And he didn't like that. Several times I've been witnessing to people, and they've asked questions like "If I get saved, do I need to go to church? Do I need to stop getting drunk? Do I need to stop sleeping around?"

If you were in a situation like I described above, how would you respond to that young man? How would you respond to somebody who asked if they would have to give something up as a result of Salvation? How would you advise someone who didn't want to get saved because it would mean leaving their sin behind?

I'm not a non-Lordship proponent, but I hope you don't object to me answering.

I would say something like this: "Although you probably can't imagine it now, when a person comes to know Jesus Christ, pleasing Him is more important to them than their former sins. Christians still sin, but when they do, the 'pleasure' from their sin is lessened, as they realise how much they have offended their Saviour." I might mention Saul of Tarsus as an example. Before becoming a Christian, indeed, right up to the time of his conversion, he was an avowed enemy of Jesus Christ, "breathing threats and murder" against Christians. But as soon as he meets Jesus Christ, he asks, "Lord, what do you want me to do?"

 

[David Lamb]

I'm not understanding how someone can be saved and not believe that they're a sinner. If you don't understand that you're a sinner, then how can you understand Salvation?

I agree. What are you being saved from if you don't understand that you have offended amighty God, and deserve only His wrath?

 

[David Lamb]

FTR, IronWill stated he was taught this at a Bible College, not a seminary.

Ed

Sorry Ed, what is the difference? I just looked up "seminary" in my dictionary, and found that it is "a college for training priests, Christian ministers, etc." (emphasis mine). Is this another of the many US/UK differences of usage?

 

[Goldie]

Now the other day, I was witnessing to a young man about my age that I work with. I was asking him questions concerning religion, and he got uncomfortable and defensive after a few minutes of talking. Finally he said "I can't become a Christian." I inquired of him "why not?" He responded saying "If I become a Christian, then I can't go out and get drunk every weekend. I can't sleep with my girlfriend, I can't smoke my cigarettes, I can't do any of the stuff that I like to do. I LIKE MY SIN TOO MUCH TO GET SAVED." He realized, as an unregenerate man, that salvation meant obedience to Christ, and leaving his sin behind. And he didn't like that. Several times I've been witnessing to people, and they've asked questions like "If I get saved, do I need to go to church? Do I need to stop getting drunk? Do I need to stop sleeping around?"

So in other words what you're saying is that one has to leave one's sin behind because you don't trust Jesus Christ to forgive it and change you after you are saved? So in other words, the Holy Spirit living inside you means nothing, He's helpless in changing you? Where's the trust in the Lord Jesus Christ? Where's the total reliance and dependence on Him to make you a new creature? So it's preferable to make yourself a "new creature" then by giving up your sin? That's a works based salvation.

If you were in a situation like I described above, how would you respond to that young man? How would you respond to somebody who asked if they would have to give something up as a result of Salvation? How would you advise someone who didn't want to get saved because it would mean leaving their sin behind?

What I would've said to him would've been by the leading of the Holy Spirit in me to tell him that he sure doesn't have to give up all his "lovely sin", but that if he truly relied, depended and trusted in Jesus Christ as his Saviour, there's no way he could remain the same person. From my personal experience there has been one particular sin that I battled with throughout my Christian walk and I never thought I could be rid of it, but it's amazing what prayer and belief can do - He has taken away my urge to indulge in this sin - I no longer have the need or desire for it. The same goes for smoking cigarettes - it vanished almost instantaneously.

So yes, it all boils down to faith - reliance - dependence - trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, doesn't it? The Bible doesn't fib when it says BELIEVE ON HIM and be saved.

What people don't realize is that Christians can wilfully sin, but God will discipline them, because He disciplines those He loves, just as a parent disciplines he's children. That's why bad things happen to Christians. God is not mocked, what you sow, you will reap.

Then there's still the BEMA judgment which Christians are to face after being raptured/resurrected. We might be forgiven as Christians, but God is Just - He still needs to balance the scales of justice, so if a Christian has offended someone - be it a Christian or unbeliever, they will be punished - their rewards will be taken away. Why do you think there will still be weeping during the Millennium?

It doesn't mean to say that if you've done someone in as a Christian you get off scot-free and the other person is simply out of luck. You will have to "face the music" some day. So if you're saved and you still indulge in certain vices - you're in for a tough time at the BEMA judgment. You are saved, but God still has to correct that sin and make it right as recompense to either Himself or the person(s) you have harmed.

Anyone who accepts Jesus as their Saviour and is sincere about it and relies fully upon Him cannot possibly remain the same - there has to be change - sometimes it's instantaneous, but most of the time it's a slow process, because most people don't have much faith, because they don't ask God for more. The Bible tells us that some don't have because they don't ask.

 

[IronWill]

FTR, IronWill stated he was taught this at a Bible College, not a seminary.

Ed

Yeah...I don't think you could count Hyles-Anderson College or Northeast Baptist Bible as "Seminaries."

 

[IronWill]

Sorry Ed, what is the difference? I just looked up "seminary" in my dictionary, and found that it is "a college for training priests, Christian ministers, etc." (emphasis mine). Is this another of the many US/UK differences of usage?

Seminary is a bit of a step beyond Bible college. Bible college would be where you go to get your Bachelor's, and Seminary would be where you go to get your Master's or Doctorate. Although some Bible Colleges do offer Masters and Doctorate programs.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

What would you say if someone asked you this?

"If I become a Christian, do I have to stop sleeping with my girlfriend?"

I think JoJ, Goldie, and David Lamb are gong the right direction here.

My answer would be very simple.

NO

They don't have to do anything to become a Christian, if they did then their salvation would be based on their own works instead of on the grace of God.

But then I would add that they should not be surprised if their desires and wants change after they become a Christian. No you don't have to stop committing immorality, but don't be surprised if you don't want to anymore. When we are changed into new creatures and have a new heart and new nature then our wants and desires change.

 

[IronWill]

I think JoJ, Goldie, and David Lamb are gong the right direction here.

My answer would be very simple.

NO

They don't have to do anything to become a Christian, if they did then their salvation would be based on their own works instead of on the grace of God.

That wasn't the question. You've answered a question that I haven't asked. Please answer the one that I did ask. I did not ask "will they have to stop sleeping with their girlfriend to become a Christian."

 

[EdSutton]

Sorry Ed, what is the difference? I just looked up "seminary" in my dictionary, and found that it is "a college for training priests, Christian ministers, etc." (emphasis mine). Is this another of the many US/UK differences of usage?

Probably no effective difference, to me at least, as to intent. However, a college is usually at the undergraduate level and a seminary is at the graduate level. I was just trying to be accurate.

Incidentally, I did not even notice who wrote this, just that it was written, so one will know I often do not even look at who writes something, but again, just what is written.

Ed

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

That wasn't the question. You've answered a question that I haven't asked. Please answer the one that I did ask. I did not ask "will they have to stop sleeping with their girlfriend to become a Christian."

No, I was answering StefanM's question of:

What would you say if someone asked you this?

"If I become a Christian, do I have to stop sleeping with my girlfriend?" (emphasis mine)

And my answer is what I said earlier, NO.

You don't have to do anything. If our salvation was dependent on things we had to do then it would be based on our works and actions, not on God's.

But what does happen is that God changes our heart. This is the work of the spirit called sanctification. We don't have to do anything, but the things we want to do will change. And so we will change and we will forsake sin and draw closer to God. But it won't be because we have to but because we want to.

Does that answer you better IronWill?