A Question For Non-Lordship Proponents

[IronWill]

No, I was answering StefanM's question of:
And my answer is what I said earlier, NO.

You don't have to do anything. If our salvation was dependent on things we had to do then it would be based on our works and actions, not on God's.

But what does happen is that God changes our heart. This is the work of the spirit called sanctification. We don't have to do anything, but the things we want to do will change. And so we will change and we will forsake sin and draw closer to God. But it won't be because we have to but because we want to.

Does that answer you better IronWill?

Not really, because you missed the total intent of her question. You answered the wrong question. The question was not "do I have to stop to become" a Christian.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I think my answer got lost in the shuffle. It's a few pages back..

"If I become a Christian, do I have to stop sleeping with my girlfriend?"

Answer: If you become a Christian you WILL stop commiting fornication, which you are doing now, for which the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore, repent and turn away from your wickedness and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is salvation from the wrath of God in no other.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I think my answer got lost in the shuffle. It's a few pages back..



Answer: If you become a Christian you WILL stop commiting fornication, which you are doing now, for which the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore, repent and turn away from your wickedness and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is salvation from the wrath of God in no other.

Close, but not exactly. First believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, there is salvation and sanctification available. Then you can turn from your fornication. If you try to save yourself first then one of two things will happen. First, you may fail. This will probably be the result and you will continue to live without Christ because you have allowed your sin to come between you and God. Or, second, you will succeed and stop commiting fornication. And then why will you need Christ?

What if we turn that question around? What if instead of asking “If I become a Christian do I have to stop sleeping with my girlfriend?” We instead ask, “Do Christians ever commit immorality?” Of course we know that Christians do sin, I am not condoning that, but we know it happens.

You know this reminds me of the kinds of questions the Pharisees loved to ask Jesus. You remember the day they brought him a woman taken in adultery (John 8). Do you remember His response? Yes he told her to go and sin no more (John 8:11), that’s great, but before that he first told her accusers, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

To really understand this statement you must also understand that when it came to capital crimes in the Jewish law witnesses not only gave testimony but also had to participate in the execution. If a man or woman was convicted and sentenced to death the witnesses on who’s testimony they were convicted were required by law to throw the first stone. If you were going to bear witness of a crime and because of that testimony someone was going to be put to death then you had to do more than just testify. Their blood was on your hands by action and word.

Then after that, Jesus himself, the one man there who could have cast that first stone, the one man there who was without sin, then he says to her, “Neither do I condemn thee (John 8:11).

So someone is committing immorality with their girlfriend and they want to get saved. It’s not your job to condemn them and tell them God’s grace will not reach them. God’s grace is sufficient and they can be saved, no matter what their motives or intentions.

When it comes to condemning them and changing their behavior; why don’t we leave that up to God? I am not approving of their actions or lifestyle, but I am not some kind of gatekeeper who gets to decide who comes to Jesus and who is not allowed to, and neither are you.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Close, but not exactly. First believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, there is salvation and sanctification available.

While there is much that can be replied to your post, it's probably enough to stop here. I do not believe the Scriptures to teach that Christ died and rose again to make salvation merely available, or possible. He actually and truly accomplished salvation for those He died and rose again for.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

While there is much that can be replied to your post, it's probably enough to stop here. I do not believe the Scriptures to teach that Christ died and rose again to make salvation merely available, or possible. He actually and truly accomplished salvation for those He died and rose again for.

I can agree with you on that RB. Whatever our differences I think we agree that Christ did the work.

 

[StefanM]

Let's think of this another way:

"Does Jesus want you to stop sleeping with your girlfriend?"

The answer is unequivocally yes.

 

[webdog]

I think my answer got lost in the shuffle. It's a few pages back..



Answer: If you become a Christian you WILL stop commiting fornication, which you are doing now, for which the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore, repent and turn away from your wickedness and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is salvation from the wrath of God in no other.

Then why did David fornicate?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Then why did David fornicate?

Are you insinuating that I am teaching Christain prefectionism? Please don't confuse the subject with another.

 

[J.D.]

I attended a Bible college that taught much of what non-Lordshippers teach. One of the things they taught in evangelism classes was that if we were witnessing to somebody, and they started talking about sin that they would have to give up if they became a Christian, that we were to tell them that they didn't have to change anything as a Christian. In fact, we were encouraged to tell them that they would never have to set foot inside a church, crack open a Bible, or anything after Salvation. All they had to do was pray the prayer. All they had to do was "ask Jesus to save them and really mean it."

Now the other day, I was witnessing to a young man about my age that I work with. I was asking him questions concerning religion, and he got uncomfortable and defensive after a few minutes of talking. Finally he said "I can't become a Christian." I inquired of him "why not?" He responded saying "If I become a Christian, then I can't go out and get drunk every weekend. I can't sleep with my girlfriend, I can't smoke my cigarettes, I can't do any of the stuff that I like to do. I LIKE MY SIN TOO MUCH TO GET SAVED." He realized, as an unregenerate man, that salvation meant obedience to Christ, and leaving his sin behind. And he didn't like that. Several times I've been witnessing to people, and they've asked questions like "If I get saved, do I need to go to church? Do I need to stop getting drunk? Do I need to stop sleeping around?"

If you were in a situation like I described above, how would you respond to that young man? How would you respond to somebody who asked if they would have to give something up as a result of Salvation? How would you advise someone who didn't want to get saved because it would mean leaving their sin behind?

Excellent question, and just the kind of thing that drove me to examine the doctrine of salvation from a fresh perspective.

This thread has revealed the futility of framing the conversation about salvation around the decisional powers of the human mind. Only the power of the Holy Spirit can save a human, and He does it by turning them FROM sin TO God.

I would simply tell the young man that if he is not ready to turn from sin then he is not ready to turn to God, and I would pray that God would convict him of his sin. Using psychological manipulation to get him to "say the prayer" would be pointless (eternally speaking anyway - but it would be another "decision" that could be recorded for bragging purposes in a "soul-winning" church).

 

[webdog]

Are you insinuating that I am teaching Christain prefectionism? Please don't confuse the subject with another.

Did you not say you WILL stop fornicating? I'm not insinuating anything...it was your own words.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Did you not say you WILL stop fornicating? I'm not insinuating anything...it was your own words.

So your going to argue about my meaning? lol

 

[webdog]

So your going to argue about my meaning? lol

I'm not arguing at all. You stated something emphatically. I called you out on that statemt. Simple. "Will" doesn't leave much wiggle room

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm not arguing at all. You stated something emphatically. I called you out on that statemt. Simple. "Will" doesn't leave much wiggle room

So you are going to argue about my meaning. Case closed. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

So you are going to argue about my meaning. Case closed. :laugh:

Since your definition of will is different than what I believe it to mean, I guess so. :thumbs:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Since your definition of will is different than what I believe it to mean, I guess so. :thumbs:

Thanks for the admission. I do not argue about my own meaning. :wavey:

 

[nodak]

Whenever I witness to someone who tells me "they like their sin too much to become a Christian" I know I am dealing with someone who still thinks they have to work to earn salvation.

You cannot come into the kingdom on those terms. You have nothing of any worth or righteousness to offer for your salvation.

You have to come on on Jesus' terms: knowing you are deserving of hell and knowing He alone can GIVE you salvation, trusting in Him to do so.

Now, that said, some folks do not understand that after salvation comes sanctification--the process whereby God gives us a "new wanter." They do not understand that they will not want to do some things they now enjoy, or want to do some things they do not now enjoy. If that seems to be the case, I tell them about that "new wanter."

But the proper order of salvation is not "new wanter", then clean up my act, then get saved. It is get saved, begin getting "new wanter", then watch as God begins cleaning up my act.

People who "get" this are saved. And you know they are Christians by their love.

People who don't "get" this are religious. And they think they prove their "salvation" by the Bible version they use, their theology, or their righteous behavior.

But ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags. ALL OF IT.

Remember, the proud one thanking God he was not a sinner like the others did not go home justified (saved.) It was the humble sinner begging for mercy who did.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Excellent post nodak, thank you.

You know I think we can take this question a step further and instead of immorality being a sin that keeps this man from Christ, we can turn it around and use his sin to drive him to Christ. The Bible tells us that the law is a schoolmaster or teacher (Gal 3:24-25) that brings us to Christ. The TV show with Kirk Cameron does a great job of this.

Obviously the individual in this hypothetical is feeling guilt and remorse or he would not bring it up. He certainly does not feel justified or holy.

I remember the day my second son got saved. He was about 7 and we were in the car on the way back to school after taking him to the dentist. He started talking about a boy in his class that was a bully and did some mean things and he said, “I just don’t see how someone like that could be a Christian.” That gave me the opportunity to point out that my son was not perfect either. The knowledge of his own sin led him to accept Christ right there in front seat. Without the knowledge that there is sin in our lives, without knowing that we need to change, that we need a savior, why would any of us come to Christ?

 

[JustChristian]

I attended a Bible college that taught much of what non-Lordshippers teach. One of the things they taught in evangelism classes was that if we were witnessing to somebody, and they started talking about sin that they would have to give up if they became a Christian, that we were to tell them that they didn't have to change anything as a Christian. In fact, we were encouraged to tell them that they would never have to set foot inside a church, crack open a Bible, or anything after Salvation. All they had to do was pray the prayer. All they had to do was "ask Jesus to save them and really mean it."

Now the other day, I was witnessing to a young man about my age that I work with. I was asking him questions concerning religion, and he got uncomfortable and defensive after a few minutes of talking. Finally he said "I can't become a Christian." I inquired of him "why not?" He responded saying "If I become a Christian, then I can't go out and get drunk every weekend. I can't sleep with my girlfriend, I can't smoke my cigarettes, I can't do any of the stuff that I like to do. I LIKE MY SIN TOO MUCH TO GET SAVED." He realized, as an unregenerate man, that salvation meant obedience to Christ, and leaving his sin behind. And he didn't like that. Several times I've been witnessing to people, and they've asked questions like "If I get saved, do I need to go to church? Do I need to stop getting drunk? Do I need to stop sleeping around?"

If you were in a situation like I described above, how would you respond to that young man? How would you respond to somebody who asked if they would have to give something up as a result of Salvation? How would you advise someone who didn't want to get saved because it would mean leaving their sin behind?

I would tell him I used to think in exactly the same way. I knew that there were things in my life that were standing between me and God and I wasn't willing to give them up. But then I would tell him about some of the most difficult things I've had to face without God, just me alone, and I realized that one day we would all have to face death either alone or with Jesus Christ by our side. Finally, I would say that since I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior I've still had to deal with hard times but never alone again. I now have Him by my side. And I don't fear death anymore. I still sin but recognize that I've fallen away from Him and repent. Christians have it all, the best life and the best death.