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A Question for study

V

Van

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Here is the heart-felt question of one believer -
...do 'slacking soul-winners' result in MORE people going to hell? ...

...do diligent soul-winners result in MORE people going to heaven?
The Exhaustive Determinist answer is no, God determined those going to heaven, and thus the rest not going to heaven before creation.

The Scriptural answer is yes, diligent evangelism "hastens the day" thus more people per time interval, so the end of the age occurs sooner, resulting in less people not going to heaven. See 2 Peter 3:12

Two very different gospels...
 
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V

Van

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In order to address this question a common understanding of the gospel is required.

If you believe God actually chose every individual that will be saved before creation, then the number is fixed and the time they will be saved is fixed and therefore diligent evangelism will have no affect upon the timing, thus "hastening the day" is impossible.

However, if you believe, as I do, that God did not choose foreseen individuals without foreseen faith before creation, but rather chooses individuals for salvation during their physical lifetime, based on crediting their existing faith as righteousness, just as He did in Abraham's case, then diligent evangelism will have an affect upon the timing of Christ's return because the number will be reached sooner.

Two very different gospels...
 
V

Van

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Why reject the interpretation of Ephesians 1:4, that God chose foreseen individuals before creation?

Because if that view were true, we would have always been "a chosen people" and would never have been "not a people." See 1 Peter 2:9-10

Or we would have always been "beloved" (a member of God's family) rather than once having been not beloved. See Romans 9:25
 
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V

Van

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If we had been chosen individually, rather than corporately, before creation, we would have always received mercy, rather than having once not received mercy. See 1 Peter 2:9-10
 
V

Van

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God chose us when we were poor to the world, thus living in the fallen society of humanity, and holding views not cherished by humanity. To claim this really refers to a foreseen world with foreseen attitudes and value systems is ludicrous. See James 2:5.
And remember "to be" is not in the inspired text, but was added to make the verse say the exact opposite of what it says.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Van said:
God chose us when we were poor to the world, thus living in the fallen society of humanity, and holding views not cherished by humanity. To claim this really refers to a foreseen world with foreseen attitudes and value systems is ludicrous. See James 2:5.
And remember "to be" is not in the inspired text, but was added to make the verse say the exact opposite of what it says.
Click to expand...


Be interesting to see if you get a response to this @Van.
 
V

Van

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I see the diversionary forces of darkness are out in force on this thread.

You don't suppose they think God's word is errant, and diligent evangelism cannot really hasten the day.
God chose us when we were poor to the world, thus living in the fallen society of humanity, and holding views not cherished by humanity. To claim this really refers to a foreseen world with foreseen attitudes and value systems is ludicrous. See James 2:5.
And remember "to be" is not in the inspired text, but was added to make the verse say the exact opposite of what it says.
Thus Ephesians 1:4 does not say everyone to be saved was chosen "individually" before creation. Many other verses preclude that bogus view.Full Stop
​
 
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V

Van

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Are forces of darkness false doctrines? Yes, you bet. Do they lead people astray? Yes, you bet. Is God's word, rightly interpreted a beacon of truth? Yes, you bet.

You don't suppose they think God's word is errant [a false doctrine], and reject that diligent evangelism can actually hasten the day [ a true doctrine]

God chose us when we were poor to the world, thus living in the fallen society of humanity, and holding views not cherished by humanity. To claim this really refers to a foreseen world with foreseen attitudes and value systems is ludicrous. See James 2:5. And remember "to be" is not in the inspired text, but was added to make the verse say the exact opposite of what it says.

Thus Ephesians 1:4 does not say everyone to be saved was chosen "individually" before creation. Many other verses preclude that bogus view.Full Stop
 
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canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Van said:
As you can see, the only response is to change the subject from the topic to false claims about me. It is the M.O of those who defend error.
Click to expand...
Whaaaat are you talking about? I only referenced the three previous threads.

Peace to you
 
V

Van

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canadyjd said:
Whaaaat are you talking about? I only referenced the three previous threads.

Peace to you
Click to expand...
Endless efforts at diversion, like a dark cloud obscuring the light of truth.

Why reject the interpretation of Ephesians 1:4, that God chose foreseen individuals before creation?

Because if that view were true, we would have always been "a chosen people" and would never have been "not a people." See 1 Peter 2:9-10

Or we would have always been "beloved" (a member of God's family) rather than once having been not beloved. See Romans 9:25

 
V

Van

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Because God chooses for salvation individuals during their physical lifetime on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness, evangelism has a profound purpose. If someone wrongly believes that there is no opportunity for salvation during our lifetime, then "hastening the day" makes no sense. Food for thought!
 
V

Van

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Matthew 24:36 NASB
“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Some argue that this verse establishes that God the Father knows, and therefore has set a specific day and hour for the return of Christ.

However, that interpretation assumes God did not set the timing to when or whenever, the number of believers He has set has been reached. If people are actually being chosen for salvation during their lifetime, and more people are led to Christ (with God having credited their faith as righteousness) because of diligent evangelism, then the day of Christ's return will be hastened.
 
V

Van

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Acts of the Apostles 17:31 (ESV)
because He has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

The Greek word translated by the ESV as "fixed" and by others as "set" means to "establish" or to cause something to occur. Thus once again, the day for the occurrence of the judgement could hinge upon the day of His return, which in turn could hinge upon when the number of believers God has set is reached.
 
V

Van

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2 Peter 3:8-9
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

Here the diligent bible student must as the question, to whom does "all" refer? Certainly not all people, as only few find the narrow way that leads to life. Probably not the ambiguous "all kinds of people." No, the idea must be the Lord is waiting until all of the number of people He has set has been reached. Thus He will not cut the time short, which would result in "not all" coming to repentance. On the other hand, what if God has chosen specific individuals which will be born into existence on a fixed timetable. This view does not mesh with God being patient with us, those providing the witness, as our efforts would not alter the outcome and result in no all coming to repentance. No, the only interpretation that fits with all scripture is God has set the number of people and we can affect the timing of when that number is reached.

 
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