Another argument against the premise diligent evangelism may hasten the day of the Lord's return, is that we, mere mortals, cannot possibly affect the Lord's timetable. However this view flies in the face of scripture, where the Lord adjusts His actions contingent upon human response.
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A Question for study
- Thread starter Van
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Lastly an argument is made that we, mere mortals, cannot possibly hurry up a day which God had planned. This again rests upon God's plan of how to establish the day and hour. If it is when the number of believers is reached, then we, mere mortals, have not overridden God's plan, we have carried it out!
Though my faith does not hold that beforehand, God chose for salvation certain individuals, apart from knowing ahead of time whether they would believe of their own free will, neither do I believe that the salvation of people depends on the willingness of the saints to proclaim the gospel. Rather, I believe that the decision to seek God for eternal life, procures for them by God the reception of the gospel, through those that God would move to carry it to them, so that, if and when they believe it, they will be given eternal life.
All of us are free to believe whatever we want. The issue is what did God actually teach.
1) The decision to seek God for eternal life does not "procure" reception. Rich young ruler for example.
2) If and when they believe the gospel is discerned solely by God, and not by the professing believer.
3) In short we ask for mercy and if God credits our faith as righteousness, He gives us mercy and transfers us spiritually into Christ.
4) Your belief God knew who would believe is based on man-made doctrine. I am not aware of any verse that indicates God knew who would believe before He created them. God knows what scripture, contextually understood, says He knows. For example His knowledge is beyond our understanding. He knows that part of the future that He has declared will happen. That is prophecy. But where does scripture say He knows what He has not declared?
Though God is the one who grants eternal life to the believer, there is no place in scripture where it says that He predestines or causes their faith.
The rich young ruler, from what I understand, did not ask Jesus how to have eternal life, but what good thing he may do to inherit eternal life. In scripture, the inheritance of the saints has to do with rewards in God's kingdom.
There is no verse in scripture that says that God determines the time of a believer's faith. Even if He does determine the time of faith of those who will believe, still, He does not determine the ones who will believe.
Asking God for mercy is not the condition for receiving eternal life. Believing Christ's promise of eternal life, which is stated several times in the Book of John, is.
The rich young ruler, from what I understand, did not ask Jesus how to have eternal life, but what good thing he may do to inherit eternal life. In scripture, the inheritance of the saints has to do with rewards in God's kingdom.
There is no verse in scripture that says that God determines the time of a believer's faith. Even if He does determine the time of faith of those who will believe, still, He does not determine the ones who will believe.
Asking God for mercy is not the condition for receiving eternal life. Believing Christ's promise of eternal life, which is stated several times in the Book of John, is.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
There is what Paul wrote concerning his own salvation:
“15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called [me] through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,” (Ga 1:15-16 NKJV)
Paul certainly believed that God determined the time he came to believe in the Saviour.
"Paul certainly believed that God determined the time he came to believe in the Saviour."
Does Galatians 1:15-16 actually support is claim? Nope. I says God determined the time God choose to reveal His Son "in me" or to make His Son manifest in Paul's understanding. Now it is not too far of a leap to think this revelation would bring Paul to his senses, because it did! However Paul did not "call upon the name of the Lord" until days later. And that action of calling was according to Paul's choice! See Acts 22:16
Does Galatians 1:15-16 actually support is claim? Nope. I says God determined the time God choose to reveal His Son "in me" or to make His Son manifest in Paul's understanding. Now it is not too far of a leap to think this revelation would bring Paul to his senses, because it did! However Paul did not "call upon the name of the Lord" until days later. And that action of calling was according to Paul's choice! See Acts 22:16
Predestination, clear and simple:
15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1
Saul, before Paul:
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16
The call:
4 and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul [John 10:3], why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: Acts 9
12 I thank him that enabled me, even Christ Jesus our Lord, for that he counted me faithful, appointing me to his service;
13 though I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief; 1 Tim 1
That is only one instance, in which God may have chosen Paul. That does not automatically mean that God predestinated all believers to believe.
Instances in the scriptures are given for EXAMPLES to us. Why deprive yourself of them? Why the resistance to these great truths?
Paul was definitely chosen by God, there's no 'may have been' to it:
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel: Acts 9
Paul was predestined, just as we all are:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Ro 8
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Ro 9
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1
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God can choose an individual for His purpose, to be witness to the Gentiles, or to be a bad example such as Judas. Some claim if God chooses someone from the womb for a purpose, that proves God chooses individuals for salvation unconditionally, rather than based on crediting their faith as righteousness. That claim of course is nonsense.
Can you imagine joy in heaven if God compelled a person to repent and believe? Neither can I. The whole claim is ludicrous.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But from being a great persecutor of the Lord's people, Paul immediately was caused to address Jesus Christ as Lord:
“So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord [said] to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."” (Ac 9:6 NKJV)
Your assumption is that Paul "immediately was caused" has no basis is scripture. Acts 9:5, after hearing "Why are you persecuting Me" he asks, Who are you "Lord." The Greek word does have the contextual meaning of "The Lord" but in this context, the meaning is more likely Sir or Master.
In Acts 22:10, Paul asks What shall I do Lord, and here we can infer Paul had recognized the authority of the Person speaking. I agree that this recognition, that the Speaker was "The Lord," is possible, but to claim the recognition was "caused" [supernaturally] is unwarranted.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
It seems highly unlikely that the arch-persecutor would suddenly, of his own volition, decide to ask the One Whose way He had been persecuting, "What do you want me to do?" It's an example of what he was later to write as an apostle:
“4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:4-8 NKJV)
To conflate the causation by God alone to "make a dead in trespass sinner, alive together with Christ" with Paul's recognition that the Speaker he heard on the road to Damascus was a person in authority is highly unlikely, in my opinion. Recall that it took about 3 additional days for Paul to "call upon the name of the Lord." See Acts 22:16
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Recall that it took about 3 additional days for Paul to "call upon the name of the Lord." See Acts 22:16
Act 22:16
‘And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I had missed that Acts 22 reference/ However, he wouldn't have been commanded to be baptized if he wasn't already a believer. He had shown my his words and actions in Acts 9 that he had changed from being against Christ and His followers to humbly asking Christ what he should do, then doing it, and calling Him "Lord".
1) No problem, I miss things all the time.
2) Christ's command to be baptized with water, is publicly known, not some special command given only to those God has spiritually baptized into Christ.
3) The "baptism" that actually washes away the consequence of sin is "spiritual baptism into Christ" where we undergo the washing of regeneration.
4) My view is that Acts 22:16 urges, not commands, Paul to seek reconciliation. (1) Paul is to stop dithering, and take action.
(2) Paul is to seek the reconciliation provided by being spiritually baptized into Christ, and (3) Paul is to accomplish these actions by "calling on the name of the Lord."