A question for the Calvinists

[webdog]

So then who can resist God's will? as Romans 9:19 says. NNE can as Romans 11:29 explains. Thus the belief in free will is a myth.

Taking passages out of context are not a proof text. Many texts (which have been dealt with in great detail, i.e. Matthew 23:37, Luke 13:34, etc.) showing just that...that man can and has resisted God's will. It would help to understand the different aspects of God's will before calling something a "myth" (which doesn't mean "not true", btw )

 

[Carico]

Taking passages out of context are not a proof text. Many texts (which have been dealt with in great detail, i.e. Matthew 23:37, Luke 13:34, etc.) showing just that...that man can and has resisted God's will. It would help to understand the different aspects of God's will before calling something a "myth" (which doesn't mean "not true", btw )

Sorry, but you've just made Romans 11:29 & 9:19 contradict the passages you quoted. You've also made the passages you quoted contradict Jeremiah 10:23 and Proverbs 16:9, "In his heart a man plans his course. But the Lord determines his steps."

But put them together and you get; only by God's power can someone be righteous enough to believe and follow God. So my interpretation reconciles all scripture together and yours makes scripture contradict itself. So it's you who is taking verses out of context.

 

[webdog]

Sorry, but you've just made Romans 11:29 & 9:19 contradict the passages you quoted. You've also made the passages you quoted contradict Jeremiah 10:23 and Proverbs 16:9, "In his heart a man plans his course. But the Lord determines his steps."

But put them together and you get; only by God's power can someone be righteous enough to believe and follow God. So my interpretation reconciles all scripture together and yours makes scripture contradict itself. So it's you who is taking verses out of context.

This is what I mean...you let your preconceived ideas what a passage says interpret the passage...that is eisegesis. There is no contradiction whatsoever, that is only in your head. You approach the text that there is no free will, so then when Jesus says "...you were not willing" in regards to something HE WANTED..it just cannot be, my theology says so!! You then go on and add two more texts to the "out of context" list

 

[kyredneck]

First, it's Arminians (not Armenians), and second...you are wrong.

You agree with the concise statement of scripture:

'So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth'?

If you agree with that then you accept 'the right of the potter over the clay'.

 

[webdog]

You agree with the concise statement of scripture:

'So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth'?

If you agree with that then you accept 'the right of the potter over the clay'.

Absolutely I agree...the Bible says it. Now, what does that verse say in context?

 

[kyredneck]

Absolutely I agree...the Bible says it. Now, what does that verse say in context?

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Ro 9

 

[webdog]

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Ro 9

Like I said, in context it is dealing with Israel and God's choice to choose His people from whichever line He so wished.

 

[kyredneck]

Like I said, in context it is dealing with Israel and God's choice to choose His people from whichever line He so wished.

What does the 24th verse of this chapter say in your Bible. Mine says:

24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

 

[webdog]

What does the 24th verse of this chapter say in your Bible. Mine says:

24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

...key being "even us"...true Israel ("not all Israel is Israel")

 

[Rippon]

Thus God must draw men to himself because no man 'can come' without being drawn. However what the text does not say is that everyone drawn is saved. It is not there nor is it implied in the passages surrounding. It is a simple statement of fact. If they are saved it is because they have been drawn, and as such no one drawn can come unless it has first been granted/allowed by the Father.

Another point though is that the first passage you quote actually has nothing to do with the aspect of 'drawing' men. Only that those whom the Father 'has given him' will come. Then Jesus describes how they will come. So technically it isn't a verse speaking of His drawing but reason behind why He is drawing.

The ones given are the very same people who are drawn -- and these people are the very same ones who are raised up at the last day. Every single person thus drawn is saved. There is no way to get around that biblical fact.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The ones given are the very same people who are drawn -- and these people are the very same ones who are raised up at the last day. Every single person thus drawn is saved. There is no way to get around that biblical fact.

Not so. Every Scripture can be twisted, at the worst, or misrepresented, at best, to go around Biblical fact, to say one's preconceived notion, or insist on ideas drilled into their minds by those they hold in high regard and authority over them.

 

[Allan]

The ones given are the very same people who are drawn -- and these people are the very same ones who are raised up at the last day. Every single person thus drawn is saved. There is no way to get around that biblical fact.

Ya know, I was going to answer and even had it on here. But then it occured to me who it was that wrote it, and decided to delete it.
There is no purpose or point.

 

[kyredneck]

...key being "even us"...true Israel ("not all Israel is Israel")

There's no limit to how far some of you armEnians will go to deny the right of the potter over the clay.

 

[kyredneck]

...key being "even us"...true Israel ("not all Israel is Israel")

'Even us', the 'vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory',of the preceding verse, would indeed be the true Israel of God.

'Even us', the true Israel of God, are those in v18 that he hath mercy on, not those that He hardens.

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth. [not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles will also apply here]

 

[webdog]

There's no limit to how far some of you armEnians will go to deny the right of the potter over the clay.

There's no limit to how far some calvInists will go to deny the context of a given verse.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by Allan
Note that the gospel is hid by satan because the men have 'already' rejected it....

Your insertion of the will of man where it is not, is horrendous.

Put the horse in front of the cart where it belongs. There are those who don't believe because they don't belong to God. Period. Christ states the order very concisely and plainly:

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice.... Jn 10

Note, Christ did not say, ye are not of my sheep, because ye believe not; He said , ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:.....
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil..........
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

Again take note of the order, they were not of God, not because they wouldn't hear Him; they couldn't hear Him because they were not of God.

Here is the full uncut passage from 2 Cor in which I had previously removed the impertinent verbiage for clarity's sake. The added verbiage changes not a thing.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus` sake.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

We all know the devil is not stronger than God (I hope so anyway). 'So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth,' and that's the way He hardens them, the devil does it for Him. And, then God shined in those hearts that He had mercy on to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God. There is no will of man in this passage. And, God shining in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ is a fine example of regeneration before belief.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Note, Christ did not say, ye are not of my sheep, because ye believe not; He said , ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

Excellent, excellent, excellent. I have been trying to make that same point in another thread.

 

[webdog]

Excellent, excellent, excellent. I have been trying to make that same point in another thread.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

His sheep hear and follow. That is belief...so you and kyredneck are both wrong

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

His sheep hear and follow. That is belief...so you and kyredneck are both wrong

As one feller said,

"Note, Christ did not say, ye are not of my sheep, because ye believe not; He said , ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep."

 

[pinoybaptist]

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

His sheep hear and follow. That is belief...so you and kyredneck are both wrong

One line, two line replies, with no elaboration.
And you pronounce them wrong.