A question of authority

[Watermaker]

Hello to all!

First let me commend the administrators on this fine site! From what I've seen so far, it's very well done, and the posts I've looked at seem well written by well meaning folks in general.

I've noticed that though most appeal to the Scriptures to explain their point of view (as one ought, and as I will attempt to do as well), there are numerous references to OT passages used to justify practices/teachings in the worship of the NT church (ie - Saturday or Sunday for worship).

While there are eternal principles found in the OT that certainly have application in the NT, shouldn't our Source of Authority for what we do and say be what was taught by Christ through His Apostles?


Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

To do something "in the name" of someone is to do it by their authority, isn't it?

 

[annsni]

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that ALL Scripture is inspired by God and is suitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness - not just the New Testament. We must look to ALL of Scripture for God's Word, not just the New Testament.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I don't think the problem, at least not for most of us, is the authority of the Scriptures.

I think the big problem is how we rightly (or wrongly) divide the Word of Truth.

Some of us go on the Word, but with a measure of common sense.

Of course then when we claim common sense we get reminded that His Ways are not Our Ways and His thoughts are too high for us.

Yet, surely Children know their Father and His voice...

Even as Sheep we are expected to know Our Shepherds Voice...

And, there is The Character of God.

Which after a reasonable time walking with Jesus we should have at least a bit of a handle on. After all if we've seen the Son we've seen The Father.

All of these intermingle and can give one a headache if they insist on fully understanding it all.

And, the headache only gets worse when we try to act like we understand it all.

Not only that, but we give headaches to everyone else as well!

The most important thing I know about My father is that He loves me and His Discipline is as grievious to Him as it is to Me.

Of course many of you know how hard headed I can be...

But, He has the correct size 2x4 for every occaision! <vbg>

 

[matt wade]

I didn't think we allowed members of the church of Christ cult here?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I didn't think we allowed members of the church of Christ cult here?

Would you mind delineating what you're talking about?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Spiritual mad man...


Matt Wade obviously believes that the Church of Christ is a cult, like the Mormons or Jehovahs Wittnesses.

Most christians dont view them that way, but rather a christian group with whom we have some dis-agreements.

We have several COC folks who have been posting on this board for years without any issues, such as Bob Ryan.

 

[matt wade]

Church of Christ are not Christians. They believe in a works based salvation. They believe you must be baptised for salvation.

 

[jaigner]

Church of Christ are not Christians. They believe in a works based salvation. They believe you must be baptised for salvation.

That hardly constitutes a work-based salvation. Many are believers who have responded in faith to the Spirit's work in their lives.

This is a very disturbing post.

 

[Amy.G]

We have several COC folks who have been posting on this board for years without any issues, such as Bob Ryan.

Bob is a 7th day Adventist.

 

[Zenas]

While there are eternal principles found in the OT that certainly have application in the NT, shouldn't our Source of Authority for what we do and say be what was taught by Christ through His Apostles?


Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

To do something "in the name" of someone is to do it by their authority, isn't it?

I can't quite figure out where you're headed with this. Yes, of course our source of authority should be what was taught by Christ and passed on to us through the apostles. However, the only O.T. teachings we have to reject are burnt sacrifices, circumcision and other works of the law. In fact, we aren't prohibited from doing them; they just don't count for anything towards our salvation. Perhaps you can give us some examples of the kind of passages you had in mind when you posted this.

 

[Zenas]

Church of Christ are not Christians. They believe in a works based salvation. They believe you must be baptised for salvation.

And so should you.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Bob is a 7th day Adventist.

Amy.G...

THANK YOU!

You are 100% correct. Bob is indeed 7th day Adventist rather than COC. And the thing is...I knew that.

Somehow....I got confused. :tonofbricks:

And the sad thing is that people say the older we get, the more that will happen. :laugh:

I'm 54 now. I cant wait to see how much fun I'll be having 10 or 20 years from now!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Zenas...

Matt said...

Originally Posted by matt wade
Church of Christ are not Christians. They believe in a works based salvation. They believe you must be baptised for salvation.

And you responded...

And so should you.

No, we shouldnt. We are not water baptised in order to be saved. We are water baptised because we have been saved, through faith alone in Christ.

Water baptism is a "picture" of the new birth that has already happened.

 

[matt wade]

That hardly constitutes a work-based salvation. Many are believers who have responded in faith to the Spirit's work in their lives.

This is a very disturbing post.

Your post is very disturbing because if you believe that it's OK to think that baptism is required for salvation, then you have your Gospel message all mixed up.

Requiring baptism for salvation certainly is a works based salvation. It can't be considered anything else.

 

[Zenas]

We are not water baptised in order to be saved. We are water baptised because we have been saved, through faith alone in Christ.
Water baptism is a "picture" of the new birth that has already happened.

Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
John 3:5
1 Peter 3:21
Acts 22:16

You can twist them; you can spin them; you can try to explain them away; you can even ignore them; but you can’t deny that they are sacred scripture. They say what they mean and they mean what they say, and for the life of me I can’t understand why people like you (no aspersions intended) harbor such hatred for the rock solid scriptural doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Nothing in scripture contradicts this. Nothing! I’m sorry so many of you have been brainwashed to believe this is merely a symbol of the new life of a Christian. Yes, it is that, but it’s so much more. Fortunately, all of you have been baptized so you are indeed born again, but I would be wary of telling someone it is not part of the plan of salvation because they may think it is optional. It is not.

As you can see, I’m passionate about this topic but I am very busy this week and don’t have time to debate. So you may have the last word because that is all I am going to say.

 

[Zenas]

Your post is very disturbing because if you believe that it's OK to think that baptism is required for salvation, then you have your Gospel message all mixed up.

Requiring baptism for salvation certainly is a works based salvation. It can't be considered anything else.

No, your post is disturbing because you are seriously misled. Baptism is not a work any more than confessing that Jesus is Lord is a work. Doing good things, like feeding the hungry and providing them shelter, is a work.

 

[jaigner]

Requiring baptism for salvation certainly is a works based salvation. It can't be considered anything else.

I never said I agree with it. In fact I strongly disagree.

But I wouldn't, not in a million years, say that someone who feels otherwise is not a Christian.

Works-based is basically an accumulation of good deeds.

This is not works-based.

 

[matt wade]

No, your post is disturbing because you are seriously misled. Baptism is not a work any more than confessing that Jesus is Lord is a work. Doing good things, like feeding the hungry and providing them shelter, is a work.

If you believe baptism is necessary for salvation, then it is a work. A work is anything that you believe you need to do on your own. Jesus already accomplished everything necessary for your salvation. If you believe you need to do something else, it's a work.

You really need to remove the Baptist from your denomination. You are not a Baptist. Do you attend a Baptist church? If so, does your entire Baptist church believe that baptism is required for salvation?

 

[matt wade]

I never said I agree with it. In fact I strongly disagree.

But I wouldn't, not in a million years, say that someone who feels otherwise is not a Christian.

Works-based is basically an accumulation of good deeds.

This is not works-based.

Would you say that someone that thinks they need to write "I love Jesus" three thousand times before they are saved is a Christian? Would you believe that they are truly saved?

 

[jaigner]

Would you say that someone that thinks they need to write "I love Jesus" three thousand times before they are saved is a Christian? Would you believe that they are truly saved?

That isn't a parallel comparison, but, in theory, I believe it is possible. If they have faith in Christ, such error is not insurmountable.

Ultimately, though, it's not for me to judge.