A question of authority

[matt wade]

I have read up on it and I don't buy into it. There will be one judgment for all--some will go to Heaven and some will go to Hell. This belief about two or three different judgments is nonsense promulgated by those buy into OSAS.

Why do you continue to ignore the questions about whether you are a Baptist?

Are you a Baptist?

Do you attend a Baptist church?

If you do attend a Baptist church, do they adhere to the same doctrine you do?

 

[preacher4truth]

Why do you continue to ignore the questions about whether you are a Baptist?

Are you a Baptist?

Do you attend a Baptist church?

If you do attend a Baptist church, do they adhere to the same doctrine you do?

Simply view his profile. He belongs to church of Christ.

Enuff said.

You're just feeding a troll, matt.

 

[matt wade]

Simply view his profile. He belongs to church of Christ.

Enuff said.

You're just feeding a troll, matt.

Zenas' profile lists that he is a Baptist and attends a church with the acronym FBC (which one usually thinks the BC is Baptist Church).

I know the original poster is church of Christ, now I'm wondering about Zenas.

 

[Zenas]

None of these Scriptures teach that salvation is by our works, or that ultimately our salvation will be judged by the works that we do. That is a heretical view.
No Baptist holds to such a view.
As no Baptist holds to the view of Baptismal regeneration.
So, I ask you again, are you truly a Baptist, or are you COC?
Your beliefs do not line up with those of a Baptist.

I disagree with your assessment of these verses. Yes, I am a member of a Southern Baptist church, a very old one at that. It was established in the first half of the 19th Century. I attend regularly and contribute heavily. No, my beliefs aren't very baptistic but I stay there because it's comfortable. Like I said in an earlier post and have often said on this board, our members aren't much into doctrine. Even a majority of our deacons could not tell you what our statement of faith says. As for CoC, I know a lot about them. They are very prominent in this part of the country. But surely you couldn't have read my posts over the years and think I am CoC. If you go back and do a careful search, you will find that on one or two occasions I have taken issue with their position on musical instruments.

 

[preacher4truth]

Zenas' profile lists that he is a Baptist and attends a church with the acronym FBC (which one usually thinks the BC is Baptist Church).

I know the original poster is church of Christ, now I'm wondering about Zenas.

An hour or so ago, it said church of Christ.

He changed it. I just checked, and he's covering his truth. And his tracks. Most cultic groups do these things.

 

[matt wade]

An hour or so ago, it said church of Christ.

He changed it. I just checked, and he's covering his truth. And his tracks. Most cultic groups do these things.

Yesterday it said Baptist. It may be that you were looking at the original poster and not Zenas. I've looked at Zenas' profile in the past and it has said Baptist as well.

 

[matt wade]

I disagree with your assessment of these verses. Yes, I am a member of a Southern Baptist church, a very old one at that. It was established in the first half of the 19th Century. I attend regularly and contribute heavily. No, my beliefs aren't very baptistic but I stay there because it's comfortable. Like I said in an earlier post and have often said on this board, our members aren't much into doctrine. Even a majority of our deacons could not tell you what our statement of faith says. As for CoC, I know a lot about them. They are very prominent in this part of the country. But surely you couldn't have read my posts over the years and think I am CoC. If you go back and do a careful search, you will find that on one or two occasions I have taken issue with their position on musical instruments.

Sounds like you have a church there that will be spewed out.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yesterday it said Baptist. It may be that you were looking at the original poster and not Zenas. I've looked at Zenas' profile in the past and it has said Baptist as well.

I stand corrected and apologize.

However, his doctrine is not Baptistic.

 

[DHK]

I have read up on it and I don't buy into it. There will be one judgment for all--some will go to Heaven and some will go to Hell. This belief about two or three different judgments is nonsense promulgated by those buy into OSAS.

Not very many Baptists that I know would believe that either.
You have a hard time convincing me you are a Baptist.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not very many Baptists that I know would believe that either.
You have a hard time convincing me you are a Baptist.

I lean Amil. I believe in two judgements one at the moment of death which determines your eternity and a general judgement at the consumation of all things. I don't buy into the whole rapture thing. Yet, I'm not the only baptist I know who believes in like manner to me regarding this matter.

 

[DHK]

our members aren't much into doctrine.

Then what are they into??

I have taken issue with their position on musical instruments.

That is not such a big issue. Spurgeon and Wesley wouldn't allow instruments into their churches either. That is minor compared to:
1. Baptismal regeneration.
2. Salvation by works.
3. Belief in only one general resurrection for all.

All of the above three positions are heretical.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Then what are they into??

That is not such a big issue. Spurgeon and Wesley wouldn't allow instruments into their churches either. That is minor compared to:
1. Baptismal regeneration.
2. Salvation by works.
3. Belief in only one general resurrection for all.

All of the above three positions are heretical.

What do you mean by your third point? I might take issue with it depending on what you say.

 

[DHK]

I lean Amil. I believe in two judgements one at the moment of death which determines your eternity and a general judgement at the consumation of all things. I don't buy into the whole rapture thing. Yet, I'm not the only baptist I know who believes in like manner to me regarding this matter.

Apart from your eschatology one cannot ignore Scripture. Here are just some of the judgements mentioned in Scripture:

1. The judgement of angels
2. The judgement of the righteous.
3. The judgement of the unrighteous.
4. The judgement of the nations

Those are four to start with. There may be more that I haven't thought of.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Apart from your eschatology one cannot ignore Scripture. Here are just some of the judgements mentioned in Scripture:

1. The judgement of angels
2. The judgement of the righteous.
3. The judgement of the unrighteous.
4. The judgement of the nations

Those are four to start with. There may be more that I haven't thought of.

You're funny. A lot of those are overlapped in the consumation of all things or General Judgement.

Angles have nothing to do in regard to our soteriology. Thus Angles have been judged and will be judged at the consumation of all things. As far as the Judgement of the righteous and the unrighteous every man is judged at death and then the general judgement which includes the nations. There are not 4 seperate judgments but 4 seperate dispensing of judgement. Thus the unrighteous and the righteous are both judged at death and then the general judgement where the unrighteous are condemened to the 2nd death and the Just are rewarded with rewards. The nations fall into the last consumation or general judgement as well. These aren't 4 seperate events.

 

[DHK]

You're funny. A lot of those are overlapped in the consumation of all things or General Judgement.

Angles have nothing to do in regard to our soteriology. Thus Angles have been judged and will be judged at the consumation of all things. As far as the Judgement of the righteous and the unrighteous every man is judged at death and then the general judgement which includes the nations. There are not 4 seperate judgments but 4 seperate dispensing of judgement. Thus the unrighteous and the righteous are both judged at death and then the general judgement where the unrighteous are condemened to the 2nd death and the Just are rewarded with rewards. The nations fall into the last consumation or general judgement as well. These aren't 4 seperate events.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

Jesus never spoke of one resurrection; he spoke of two:
1. A resurrection for them that have done good--unto the resurrection of life, and
2. A resurrection for them that have done evil--unto the resurrection of damnation.

No passage of Scripture could be any clearer than this one.
The hour that is to come simply refers to a period of time, not a specific hour. There is a time coming when...there will be two resurrections. It is Scripture, the teaching of Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

All this shows is that during one resurection both types of people are raised. Not two resurrections. I think the verse is very clear here. Note "all" that are in their graves. 2 dispensing of judgement 1) eternal reward and 2) eternal damnation. But both are raised. 1 ressurection here.

Jesus never spoke of one resurrection; he spoke of two:
1. A resurrection for them that have done good--unto the resurrection of life, and
2. A resurrection for them that have done evil--unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 resurrection 2 dispensing of judgement.
No passage of Scripture could be any clearer than this one.
The hour that is to come simply refers to a period of time, not a specific hour. There is a time coming when...there will be two resurrections. It is Scripture, the teaching of Christ.

 

[DHK]

All this shows is that during one resurection both types of people are raised. Not two resurrections. I think the verse is very clear here. Note "all" that are in their graves. 2 dispensing of judgement 1) eternal reward and 2) eternal damnation. But both are raised. 1 ressurection here.


1 resurrection 2 dispensing of judgement.
No passage of Scripture could be any clearer than this one.
The hour that is to come simply refers to a period of time, not a specific hour. There is a time coming when...there will be two resurrections. It is Scripture, the teaching of Christ.

It speaks of two resurrections. Two separate times--not one general resurrection. If Jesus meant one general resurrection he would have said that but he didn't. He mentioned and stated two distinct separate resurrections for two distinct separate people--just and unjust.

He repeated the same elsewhere:
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (Revelation 20:1-7)

There is the first resurrection--vs. 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. It takes place first--a thousand years before the second resurrection.

There is the second resurrection:
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)
Note in verse six that those in the first resurrection, the second death has no power.
Those in the second resurrection, which happens a thousand years later appear here before the Great White Throne Judgment. Many times is the "thousand years" used stressing that this is no allegorical number but an actual period of time in the future of mankind. Two resurrections separated by a thousand years.
BTW, John wrote this book as well as the Gospel of John, both of which speak of these same resurrections.

 

[billwald]

>A work is anything that you believe you need to do on your own. Jesus already accomplished everything necessary for your salvation.

Then "inviting/accepting" Jesus is a work and an alter call is satanic. This is a logical conclusion of the above statement.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It speaks of two resurrections. Two separate times--not one general resurrection. If Jesus meant one general resurrection he would have said that but he didn't. He mentioned and stated two distinct separate resurrections for two distinct separate people--just and unjust.

He repeated the same elsewhere:
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (Revelation 20:1-7)

There is the first resurrection--vs. 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. It takes place first--a thousand years before the second resurrection.

There is the second resurrection:
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)
Note in verse six that those in the first resurrection, the second death has no power.
Those in the second resurrection, which happens a thousand years later appear here before the Great White Throne Judgment. Many times is the "thousand years" used stressing that this is no allegorical number but an actual period of time in the future of mankind. Two resurrections separated by a thousand years.
BTW, John wrote this book as well as the Gospel of John, both of which speak of these same resurrections.

Your applying two different passages and trying to combine them into one thing. In the passage of revelation its speaks of the Martyrs who judge which is not the judgement of god btw but of the Martyrs

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This judgement is in the sense of governance. And as far as two ressurections there is just one. but there are two destinations. 1) to heaven 2) to damnation.

 

[billwald]

>Originally Posted by matt wade
>Why do you continue to ignore the questions about whether you are a Baptist?

>Are you a Baptist?

>Do you attend a Baptist church?

>If you do attend a Baptist church, do they adhere to the same doctrine you do?

These are impolite and improper questions in this section because all Christians are invited to respond in this section of the website. Note the title: Christian DEBATE Forums (All Christians) > Other Christian Denominations