A question of authority

[Zenas]

Then what are they into??

Mostly missions. This year we have sent $160,000 to the cooperative program for support of North American and international missions. We're also pretty active in the local community, helping people who need food and shelter. That is outside the church walls. Inside we do pretty much what you do--Sunday School, Sunday morning and Sunday evening worship service, Wed. night dinner and prayer meeting.

That is not such a big issue. Spurgeon and Wesley wouldn't allow instruments into their churches either. That is minor compared to:
1. Baptismal regeneration.
2. Salvation by works.
3. Belief in only one general resurrection for all.

All of the above three positions are heretical.

For the record, CoC doesn't believe in baptismal regeneration. They believe baptism is necessary for salvation as an act of obedience, but not as a modality of receiving graces.

For the record, I don't believe salvation is attained initially by works. However, if you expect to maintain it and be admitted to Heaven you will need to have some good works on your record. See Matthew 25.

 

[DHK]

Then "inviting/accepting" Jesus is a work and an alter call is satanic. This is a logical conclusion of the above statement.

You define your own terms and then call Satanic those practices and beliefs that Baptists have. No doubt most of the Baptist churches on this board have altar calls. You can disagree with them if you like. You may have your opinion. But this time you have crossed the line.

You are a guest at this board. You have a privilege, not a right to post here. To call the Baptist position and practices Satanic is out of line. Refrain from doing so.

 

[DHK]

>Originally Posted by matt wade
>Why do you continue to ignore the questions about whether you are a Baptist?

>Are you a Baptist?

>Do you attend a Baptist church?

>If you do attend a Baptist church, do they adhere to the same doctrine you do?

These are impolite and improper questions in this section because all Christians are invited to respond in this section of the website. Note the title: Christian DEBATE Forums (All Christians) > Other Christian Denominations

First, you are not the moderator. That is not your call to make.
Second, what is impolite, improper, and downright rude, is for you to call Baptist doctrine and practice Satanic!

 

[DHK]

Your applying two different passages and trying to combine them into one thing. In the passage of revelation its speaks of the Martyrs who judge which is not the judgement of god btw but of the Martyrs This judgement is in the sense of governance. And as far as two ressurections there is just one. but there are two destinations. 1) to heaven 2) to damnation.

There are two different passages that show two different resurrections. One of those passages show clearly that the two resurrections are separated by a thousand years. And yet you still refuse to believe. Amazing!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There are two different passages that show two different resurrections. One of those passages show clearly that the two resurrections are separated by a thousand years. And yet you still refuse to believe. Amazing!

Not so amazing read the passages again. All it says "before" the 1,000 year reign is

saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus

These are the martyrs. Their given judgement is one of governance.

they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now note the discussion of the first ressurrection it doesn't happen 1,000 years before but after the thousand year reign. The text is clear.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

It states it there for the general judgement. The next step for the righteous is eternal life this is the second and real ressurection. Just like those in the general judgement are condemned to the second death. Again clear that its 1 ressurrection with two destinations. You can say the Martyrs were resurrected but the scriptures does not claim that is the 1st resurrection. The Martyrs have a special governance roll with Christ the King. So your statement that

There is the first resurrection--vs. 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. It takes place first--a thousand years before the second resurrection.

Is from improperly exegeting the passage.

 

[jaigner]

You are a guest at this board. You have a privilege, not a right to post here. To call the Baptist position and practices Satanic is out of line. Refrain from doing so.

Sweet mercy, calm down. He is only saying that to prove a point. You're playing right into his hand. Plus, people call me things like "satanic" or "apostate" or worse all the time and nobody raises a finger.

And it's no doubt that the idea of an altar call (or maybe "alter" call would be more like it) is still pretty novel in the grand scheme of things, and indicates an improper shift in theology of corporate worship.

 

[matt wade]

Sweet mercy, calm down. He is only saying that to prove a point. You're playing right into his hand. Plus, people call me things like "satanic" or "apostate" or worse all the time and nobody raises a finger.

Please provide just one example of someone on this forum calling you "satanic". Please, just one example.

 

[jaigner]

Please provide just one example of someone on this forum calling you "satanic". Please, just one example.

I said "like" satanic. The point is that people are rude to people with dissenting opinions all the time.

 

[matt wade]

I said "like" satanic. The point is that people are rude to people with dissenting opinions all the time.

Please provide an example where you have been called something "like" satanic.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Please provide an example where you have been called something "like" satanic.

would "heretic" suffice? Thats like "satanic".

 

[DHK]

I said "like" satanic. The point is that people are rude to people with dissenting opinions all the time.

Words have meanings. Jesus used those kind of words this way:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Take the verse literally. If I call your doctrine or practice Satanic what am I saying? What was Jesus saying? Yes Jesus said these things. What was he saying and what did he mean? Is your intent the same?

 

[DHK]

would "heretic" suffice? Thats like "satanic".

There is plenty of heresy that is floating around. Heresy that is taught by other churches. I do not call people heretics, so if you are referring to me quote me before laying the charge. I attack the doctrine not the person. For example baptismal regeneration is a heresy, a heretical view taught by the COC and by the RCC. I have always referred to it as such, and also pointed out that it was one of the first heresies to enter into Christianity. But I have never called any person believing it a heretic.

To call the Baptist doctrine, or their practice Satanic is totally uncalled for.
This is a Baptist board. Some respect is required. If there are those that don't like the rules there are many other boards that they can go to.

 

[DHK]

Not so amazing read the passages again. All it says "before" the 1,000 year reign is These are the martyrs. Their given judgement is one of governance. Now note the discussion of the first ressurrection it doesn't happen 1,000 years before but after the thousand year reign. The text is clear. It states it there for the general judgement.

Nowhere does it say anything about a general judgment. Nowhere in Revelation does it speak about "the martyrs" being given judgment or governance. It speaks about those that are blessed to have taken place in the first resurrection which is a thousand years before the second resurrection which ends in the Second Death.

The next step for the righteous is eternal life this is the second and real ressurection. Just like those in the general judgement are condemned to the second death. Again clear that its 1 ressurrection with two destinations. You can say the Martyrs were resurrected but the scriptures does not claim that is the 1st resurrection. The Martyrs have a special governance roll with Christ the King. So your statement that Is from improperly exegeting the passage.

The Christians or dead in Christ were resurrected 1000 years previous to the Great White Throne Judgment. I can guarantee you that I will not be at that Judgment--the GWT. I will not be there. I know that because my name is written in the Book of Life.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

The second resurrection is for those whose names are not in that book, and they will be cast in the lake of fire. That scene is their "final sentencing. I already know that I will not be there.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is plenty of heresy that is floating around. Heresy that is taught by other churches. I do not call people heretics, so if you are referring to me quote me before laying the charge. I attack the doctrine not the person. For example baptismal regeneration is a heresy, a heretical view taught by the COC and by the RCC. I have always referred to it as such, and also pointed out that it was one of the first heresies to enter into Christianity. But I have never called any person believing it a heretic.

To call the Baptist doctrine, or their practice Satanic is totally uncalled for.
This is a Baptist board. Some respect is required. If there are those that don't like the rules there are many other boards that they can go to.

I wasn't referring to you at all. Just noting that the term is quiet frequently used for a veriety of reasons. I agree to call Baptist Doctrine or practices Satanic is uncalled for. However, in this case, if I understand it correctly the person, billwald, I believe, was using a progression of logic to say that if such and such is so then to follow it to its logical conclusion would in fact indicate Baptist (doctrine/practice) is satanic. I believe that is the context rather than saying to hold to a particular baptist doctrine/practice is satanic. But then I could have misread the situation.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nowhere does it say anything about a general judgment. Nowhere in Revelation does it speak about "the martyrs" being given judgment or governance. It speaks about those that are blessed to have taken place in the first resurrection which is a thousand years before the second resurrection which ends in the Second Death.

The Christians or dead in Christ were resurrected 1000 years previous to the Great White Throne Judgment. I can guarantee you that I will not be at that Judgment--the GWT. I will not be there. I know that because my name is written in the Book of Life.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

The second resurrection is for those whose names are not in that book, and they will be cast in the lake of fire. That scene is their "final sentencing. I already know that I will not be there.

Revelation 20 clearly indicates that the Martyrs (only the Martyrs) are the first to rise. Everyone else is raised at the general (Great White throne judgement) Judgement. And there are two destinations. Heaven or Hell. Period. If you and I are not martyred this resurrection doesn't apply to us. Only the final general judgement. That is what I was trying to say.

 

[DHK]

Revelation 20 clearly indicates that the Martyrs (only the Martyrs) are the first to rise. Everyone else is raised at the general (Great White throne judgement) Judgement. And there are two destinations. Heaven or Hell. Period. If you and I are not martyred this resurrection doesn't apply to us. Only the final general judgement. That is what I was trying to say.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Okay, this may refer to those that die during the tribulation if that is what you are saying. But then who would they be?
1. The Jews that turn to Christ at the end of the tribulation--probably.
2. Other Christians--probably not. I don't believe there will be any others.
3. Perhaps unsaved like J.W.'s who will adamantly refuse the mark of the beast. They may refuse the mark of the beast, but they will not get to heaven by being martyred and still believing Christ is not Lord and God.
The only martyrs during the tribulation are the Jews. According to Romans 11:26 they will turn to Christ as their Messiah, as a nation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Perhaps the one who did the verse partitioning didn't do a very good job here. It seems that "This is the first resurrection" goes better with verse 6.
The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished.
The dead are spiritually dead--the unsaved. They will show up again at the Great White Throne Judgment in a thousand years in another resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6)
--The saved--all the saved--shall reign with Christ for a thousand years.
But where will they come from? Check chapter 19. They will come from heaven with Christ in defeating the armies of the world, and then to reign with Him on earth. They have already been in heaven celebrating the marriage feast of the lamb for the last seven years.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (Revelation 19:7)

And then:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (Revelation 19:11)
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:15-16)
--Those armies are the believers which took part in the first resurrection.
That is why they are so blessed. They are the ones that will reign with Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Okay, this may refer to those that die during the tribulation if that is what you are saying. But then who would they be?

Believers who defied the antichrist and would not give up on their faith and died during this period. This would include both gentile and Jewish believers who are martyred.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I think the first ressurrection is for the Martyrs I miss applied that previously. In the NIV its in Parenthesis. However, the martyrs do not get ressurected again. For the Martyrs glory is assured. Everyone else is then Ressurrected at the final judgement. Both the spiritually dead and those who are in Christ. The spiritually dead will rise to condemnation and the second death and those in Christ will rise to their reward. This is where the seperation of the sheep and the Goats occur. They are raised together each to their own ressurection - death or reward.

--The saved--all the saved--shall reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Only the Martyrs.

 

[Watermaker]

The original poster on this thread is church of Christ. That's the entire reason for his post. The church of Christ feels that the New Testament is the only thing we need to worry about. We occasionally get cult members that come through here and attempt to proselytize their cult. Seems like that is what the original poster was doing.

It's true, I am a member of the church of Christ. Seems to me that's something every spiritually minded person would want to be a member of. Maybe not.

I don't know if this is always how it's done here on Baptistboard, but it seems a bit rude to me to make a broad statement about another's beliefs based merely on an opening post and a glance at that person's profile. Thanks for the open mind, Matt. :thumbsup:

My intent was to determine the source of authority for our widely varied beliefs and practices. We all claim to derive our doctrines from the Scriptures, and one would be foolish to seek doctrine elsewhere, however, the world around us sees the divisions between us and oftentimes discounts the Bible as anything other than a book of man because of it. Jesus said that the world would believe that He had been sent by the Father because of our unity in Him.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Unity among Christians was to be like that of the unity between the Father and the Son. What's that like? Does the Father believe (for example) that baptism is necessary for the remission of sins and the Son believe that it's not? The very idea is ridiculous!

Did Paul teach the same gospel as Peter and James? Of course! Sure they had different "target demographics" if you will, but did they not preach the same thing? Were they not of the same mind?

Now some will surely say, "It's not possible for all people to understand the Scriptures the same way." I beg to differ. I submit that it is not only possible, but that it was the Divine intent of God Himself that we would understand and obey His word in the same way.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

My hope is for all of us to come closer to the unity for which Christ prayed,

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

and for which Paul earnestly pleaded

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now if anyone has a problem with my stated intent, they don't have to participate in the discussion. It's a worthy, Scriptural goal, and it's one I'd like to talk about with the rest of you. Any takers?

 

[matt wade]

It's true, I am a member of the church of Christ. Seems to me that's something every spiritually minded person would want to be a member of. Maybe not.

I don't know if this is always how it's done here on Baptistboard, but it seems a bit rude to me to make a broad statement about another's beliefs based merely on an opening post and a glance at that person's profile. Thanks for the open mind, Matt. :thumbsup:

Now if anyone has a problem with my stated intent, they don't have to participate in the discussion. It's a worthy, Scriptural goal, and it's one I'd like to talk about with the rest of you. Any takers?

It's against the forum rules to proselytize a false religion on this board. That is why you are here and that is what you are doing. I'll be reporting your post to the moderators and hopefully you'll be banned shortly.

 

[jaigner]

It's true, I am a member of the church of Christ. Seems to me that's something every spiritually minded person would want to be a member of. Maybe not.

I don't know if this is always how it's done here on Baptistboard, but it seems a bit rude to me to make a broad statement about another's beliefs based merely on an opening post and a glance at that person's profile. Thanks for the open mind, Matt.

Watermaker, are you a member of the "church of Christ" or the "Church of Christ?" There's a big difference.

Either way, though, I apologize for folks that proclaim Christ with one side of their mouths and spew venom from the other. We're not all like that.