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A question on election and choice
- Thread starter Gina B
- Start date
Who lifted Christ up? God or man?
Who provided the lamb for sacrifice?
Who determined the works of Righteousness whereby we are clothed?
Who shall bow the knee and confess Christ? only those in Heaven, or those in the eternal Lake of Fire also?
If the devil believes and trembles, and believe is all that is required, why is he still yet condemned? he does believe.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
He wasn't saying that He wasn't calling them. None are righteous, whether they are in their own eyes or not, so all need Him. So what He was saying to them, in effect, was "If you think you are so righteous, then you don't need Me, so let me go to those 'sinners' who do need me. (Just like "those who are well do not need a physician, only those who are sick")
As was said elsewhere, salvation was never offered to him. He was always in the spiritual realm where he could see God, and never was in the limited state of man, who has never seen Him, and must believe by "faith". So of course, he believes in God's existence, and what James was pointing out, was that being conscious of God's existence is not enough; salvation will manifest itself in good works (which Satan does not have), as calvinists affirm.
If you look at the way Predestinate is used in the sentance you will see that it is to be confomed to the image of the Son. Unsaved men are not predestined to e conformed to the image of his Son..only saved people are. there is no contradiction.
Also Look at the verse before it..v.28 "That Love God" do unsaved men love god?? No..So you know the context is dealing with Saved people.
Election..Like I said noone Is Elect until they get into Jesus. Jesus Is God's elect Therefore if you want to be elect you must get in him.
To be consistant If you say the elect are all going to be saved then you have to wonder why all of Israel didn't get saved. Are there not Jews in hell?? And israel was said specifically to be God's Elect In isa 45:4
You Have to be in Christ to be elect and no matter how calvinist want to abuse eph1:4 noone was in Christ before the foundation of the world..God makes that Clear in Job..
"where was thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare it if thou hast understanding.."
Election the way Calvinist use it is Not Biblical.
Russell..I use a English dictionary to look up a English word..I suppose you would run to a Lexicon if you were reading shakespear? Get real..
What exactly does the Arminian doctrine of election say? Well,they admit the foreknowledge of God,but deny His absolute foreordination as it relates to the salvation of individuals.Their distinguishing doctrine is that God did not eternally make choice of certain persons and ordain their salvation,but that He made choice of certain characters,as holiness,faith and perseverance,or of certain classes of men who possess those characters,e.g.,believers who persevere unto the end.Since they admit that God foreknows from eternity with absolute certainty precisely what individuals will repent and believe and persevere therein unto the end,it follows that their doctrine admits of the statement that God eternally predestined certain persons,who He foresaw would repent and believe and persevere to life and salvation,on the ground of that faith and perseverance thus foreseen. Calvinist doctrine holds that God's decrees are absolute and relate to all classes of events whatsoever.They therefore maintain that while nations,communities and individuals are predestined absolutely to all of every kind of good and bad that befalls them,nevertheless the Scriptures teach specifically of an election(1)of individuals,(2)to grace and salvation,(3)founded not upon the foreseen faith of the persons elected,but upon the Sovereign good pleasure of God alone.
[ October 26, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Brutus ]
[ October 26, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Brutus ]
Nope, because Shakespeare isn't translated from the Greek.
Here is the definition from Strong's (which isn't the very best scholarship, but is available online.)
AV - foreknowledge 2; 2
1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement
[ October 26, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
If you apply your reasoning to that particular verse, I can see where you can squeeze that meaning out of it, but only if you separate out sanctification from salvation, as if God only predestined sanctification but not salvation.
Then you have to deal with what Ephesians says, which is: In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will..." Now you have a direct reference to being predestined to be adopted as God's sons. Is that yet another thing that was predestined outside of salvation? The revealing thing about this verse is what it does not say. It does not say, "In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with what you chose of your own free will..."
And what else would you expect? If the Bible teaches that God chooses in advance who will be saved (predestination and election), then whenever the Bible refers to the saved, by definition, it must also be referring to those who were predestined to be saved. So I don't see how this has anything to do with free will.
The president isn't the "president elect" until he is elected, I suppose, if that's what you mean. But he didn't choose to be elected, the electoral college chose him. That's what it means to be elected. One cannot elect oneself. So to be called the elect, you're still chosen by God no matter when you think the word starts to apply.
I didn't say that every time the Bible refers to the elect it refers to those who are saved. All I said is to be elected is to be chosen. The elect don't "choose to be elected of their own free will." The Jews are, indeed, the chosen people (the elect in one respect). But clearly not every Jew will be saved.
If God predestines you to trip on a shoe tomorrow, the predestination still precedes your stumble of that shoe. Are you seriously suggesting that God did not predestine you to trip over the shoe until after you fell?
I couldn't say, since I've never studied Calvinism. But as far as I can tell, the way you're using the word "predestination" requires a time machine. And the way you use the word "elect" allows people to elect themselves to office.
[ October 27, 2002, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken Hamilton,
I can agree with your view of 'foreknowledge.' The only difference is you say that He chose His people before the foundation of the world, in a way that you never define to us. I define His choice through His ordaining/allowing people to turn from their sins to Christ after they have been convinced and convicted of their sins and need of His wonderful grace. We base our belief on John 3:16 rather than eventually getting forced into a corner saying that God damns some babies if they were not ordained or predestinated to everlasting life.
Try convincing even a sinner of your odd view. Even they have enough of the 'image of God in man' to set you straight.
I can agree with your view of 'foreknowledge.' The only difference is you say that He chose His people before the foundation of the world, in a way that you never define to us. I define His choice through His ordaining/allowing people to turn from their sins to Christ after they have been convinced and convicted of their sins and need of His wonderful grace. We base our belief on John 3:16 rather than eventually getting forced into a corner saying that God damns some babies if they were not ordained or predestinated to everlasting life.
Try convincing even a sinner of your odd view. Even they have enough of the 'image of God in man' to set you straight.
F
ForumChaplain
Guest
While we are in that frame of mind that deals with contradictions, how about we take a look at yours.
You said: "If you said that predestination only refers to the saved, I would agree with you. And that is what the scripture says. But you are interjecting the word "already".
First let me say that you said that you say that you agree with me because that is what the bible said. Yet you hold agreement with me in abeyance because you say that I contradict myself. Let's see if we can fix that.
Does not the word "saved" place things in the past tense. Does not the word "already" do the same thing? I used the word "already" because you did not appear to grasp the tense of the word "saved".
No problem, as long as you do not run for the position of bible interpretiator. (Smile, just kidding. That’s what I call a “gotcha”. They are just little funnies)
Ok, serious again. I notice that you chose to draw attention to:
1 : carefully selected : CHOSEN
2 : chosen for salvation through divine mercy
Carefully selected, if you were to carefully select some fruit at the supermarket, would you be looking for bruising & worms in you; or bruising & worms in the fruit. From a point of divinity, the word means the same things. You simply have not reconciled the use of the word from God's perspective because he said that his choice is based on nothing in man.
BTW. God has chosen the fruit that will submit to him in faith.
Here we go.. Why are you choosing your fruit based on there being no worms in them? Did your choice of the fruit without worms originate in you or in the fruit? You prefer fruit without worms, yet what you prefer has to be found in the fruit that you choose.
Now you can freely choose fruit with worms, or you can choose fruit without worms. You are free to choose according to your good pleasure.. And neither the fruit nor the worms have anything to say without it. They just lay there, inanimate; saying nothing, making no recommendations, they contribute nothing to your decision to choose with or without worms.
They can neither boast because you chose the ones with the worms, nor can they boast because you chose the one without the worms.
There I have explained how God chooses based on criteria without violating one single passage of scripture..
[ November 02, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
Well, Gina, your logic sent them into another round of it!
Since all babies and little children are His, we can at least say that it is quite true that He is not willing that one should perish! However using the word 'predestination' for this might be wrong. In Genesis 8:21, God, talking to Noah, mentions almost as a throwaway line that the heart of all men constantly are inclined toward evil from childhood (note that conception is not mentioned there!). So God knows that all men, given enough time on earth, will knowingly and consciously not only sin, but choose to sin. Thus, all men of that time on earth will die spiritually (women, too).
But God so loved the WORLD -- and so Jesus came to take away the sins of all people for all time by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. Thus, salvation is no longer a matter of sinning or not sinning. It is a matter of being born again in Christ, and that is something God has given us a choice about -- yes or no. That doesn't mean we can do it. Yes or no is simply yes or no.
So while God is not willing that one should perish, and all babies are born His, and spiritually alive (see Romans 7:7-11), all of us would have been predestined to hell had it not been for Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), thus making salvation through faith in Him, either as "God's Promise and Provision" or as his earthly name of Jesus (or Y'shua or Joshua -- not the one of the OT), has always been available to all men.
Hope that helps a little.
Since all babies and little children are His, we can at least say that it is quite true that He is not willing that one should perish! However using the word 'predestination' for this might be wrong. In Genesis 8:21, God, talking to Noah, mentions almost as a throwaway line that the heart of all men constantly are inclined toward evil from childhood (note that conception is not mentioned there!). So God knows that all men, given enough time on earth, will knowingly and consciously not only sin, but choose to sin. Thus, all men of that time on earth will die spiritually (women, too).
But God so loved the WORLD -- and so Jesus came to take away the sins of all people for all time by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. Thus, salvation is no longer a matter of sinning or not sinning. It is a matter of being born again in Christ, and that is something God has given us a choice about -- yes or no. That doesn't mean we can do it. Yes or no is simply yes or no.
So while God is not willing that one should perish, and all babies are born His, and spiritually alive (see Romans 7:7-11), all of us would have been predestined to hell had it not been for Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), thus making salvation through faith in Him, either as "God's Promise and Provision" or as his earthly name of Jesus (or Y'shua or Joshua -- not the one of the OT), has always been available to all men.
Hope that helps a little.
While we are in that frame of mind that deals with contradictions, how about we take a look at yours.
...
Does not the word "saved" place things in the past tense. Does not the word "already" do the same thing? I used the word "already" because you did not appear to grasp the tense of the word "saved".</font>[/QUOTE]We're doing some fancy time travelling, here, I think. Here's the statement to which I was responding.
My interpretation, based on the other things shilo said, was that he was saying one is not predestined to be saved until after that person is saved. That defies the definition of predestination. Other than that, the phrase "predestined to be saved" makes perfect sense. The fact that "saved" is past tense is irrelevant because of the words "to be". I predict that your fruit is predestined to be rotted someday. Does the fact that "rotted" is past tense mean that predicting this in advance is not possible?
I suspect that at this point you are either arguing with yourself, or what you imagine I believe based on Calvinism. I never said God does not predestine the elect based on some sort of criteria. I suspect that He does. I simply don't think He has revealed to us what that criteria is. He tells us that we are saved by faith, and that He has given us that faith as a free gift, but He never tells us why He elected one person over another for the gift of faith.
You have explained your hypothesis as to how God chooses, that's all.
By the way, I'm going shopping in a while and I will probably buy some fruit. Among other things, I'm sure I'll "elect" some apples that appeal to me. But in honor of you, I'll be fair and announce to the bin of apples that I am offering them all a choice to become appealing to me and then wait and see which apples choose to become appealing of their own free will.
