a question

[nunatak]

In studying the LS threads, I came on some verses that gave me pause. These verses are as follows, from KJV:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

As I look at these verses, on the surface it almost seems if Paul commits a contradiction. I do not understand his point, which seems to be the doers of the law will be justified, except that no human can be justified by keeping the law?

Then:

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So, we must DO the will of the Father, but we know that no flesh can be justified by DOING?

I would appreciate any thoughts. I am not attempting to rehash any LS threads, just get a better understanding of these verses in their context, which I may be outside.

 

[Pipedude]

In Ro. 2, Paul makes the point that the law can only save if one keeps it -- but no one does.

The Lord's words in Matthew point out that true repentence must produce works, otherwise it isn't true.

 

[skypair]

In studying the LS threads, I came on some verses that gave me pause. These verses are as follows, from KJV:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Nunatak, our God is the God of the "way out." How do you get out of this "maze?" There seems to be no way out, right? You ask yourself, "How can I keep the law?" ONLY IN CHRIST, right? But you do have to do something -- "doers are justified," right? What do you have to "do?"

Those at Pentecost asked the very same thing --- "What shall we do?" Acts 2:38 -- "Repent, be baptized in the name of Christ, and ye shall receive the Holy Spirit."

So, we must DO the will of the Father, but we know that no flesh can be justified by DOING?

A Calvinist myth, nunatak! Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

skypair

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nunatak, our God is the God of the "way out." How do you get out of this "maze?" There seems to be no way out, right? You ask yourself, "How can I keep the law?" ONLY IN CHRIST, right? But you do have to do something -- "doers are justified," right? What do you have to "do?"

Those at Pentecost asked the very same thing --- "What shall we do?" Acts 2:38 -- "Repent, be baptized in the name of Christ, and ye shall receive the Holy Spirit."

A Calvinist myth, nunatak! Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

skypair

Receive the Holy Spirit to what end? What are we saved unto (hint I'm aluding to a scripture verse)?

 

[skypair]

Receive the Holy Spirit to what end? What are we saved unto (hint I'm aluding to a scripture verse)?

"knowledge of the truth?" -- 1Tim 6:4? Do I win the "cupie doll?"

1Cor 2 is explicit on this -- we cannot know spiritual truth until we are "perfect" -- that is, "saved." THEN, 2:6-14, we can know the "wisdom of God." And 2:10 tells us that God has revealed it to us "by His Spirit."

I hope this is what you were alluding to, thinking.

skypair

 

[Allan]

In studying the LS threads, I came on some verses that gave me pause. These verses are as follows, from KJV:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

As I look at these verses, on the surface it almost seems if Paul commits a contradiction. I do not understand his point, which seems to be the doers of the law will be justified, except that no human can be justified by keeping the law?

Then:

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So, we must DO the will of the Father, but we know that no flesh can be justified by DOING?

I would appreciate any thoughts. I am not attempting to rehash any LS threads, just get a better understanding of these verses in their context, which I may be outside.

First, in verse 13 Paul is speaking about those who do not have the Mosaic Law (haven't heard) are a 'law' unto themselves. However even if the are judged according to their own "laws", only those who are doers (Lit. one who fulfills the las - or keeps it perfectly) are justified.

Paul point is the perfect keeping of the law (regardless of it being God's or mans) is an impossibility to fallen man. Thus a doer (literally one who fulfills the law) is the only person who can be justified in God's sight. Yet all have sinned and fallen short and this is why "doing" or works are not acceptable before God.

And that brings us to the verse of Paul that makes this same declaration which you quoted. They (as I have no doubt you know) do not contradict each other but in fact keep very much in the same line of thought.

Secondly:
What is the will of God that men must do but in which that "do" is not a work:

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here we see what man must "do" but isn't believing a work? No, not according to Paul in Romans 4:

Rom 4:5 ¶ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Thus we have man "doing" something but not after the manner of works or outward (physical) displays which are condemned by God but in believing.

Therefore no man can keep any law completely, especially not those of God and thus mans ability to 'do works' in exchange for righteousness is impossible.

However, it is God's will that righteousness be imparted to any man who sees the Son and believes on Him. To God belief is not a work to be exchanged for something else. It is a declaration that God is true regardless of any potential benifits. But God is faithful to those who believe and call upon His name.

At least that is how I understand the scriptures.

 

[nunatak]

Thanks Allan for the response. I missed where Paul was specifically referring to the Gentiles.

I also considered other verses that seems to go here:

Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

and

Psa 130:3 If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?

None can stand! All have fallen. And yet our righteousness MUST exceed that of the Pharisees!

Wow.