A Question

[OldRegular]

My, my; How mighty we have become, knowing all of what God is, and saying God understands only as man thinks.


I can't change what scripture says. Romans 7:4, "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God". This is in the present tense, not as we find later in Revelation.

If we believe we are in the Body of Christ, the Church, are we not one with Him, He being the Head. We are NOW connected to Him as we can see in Ephesians 5:31-32 (RSV), "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32. This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church".


What about Ephesians 2:5-10? "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--
9. not because of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." We are created in Christ Jesus.

We must determine if we are with the Bridegroom, or if we are the Bride. Scripture shows we are of the Congregation of the Church. We are invited to the Wedding. (Matthew 9:14-15; Mark 2:18-19; Luke 5:33-34; John 3:29). What says scripture as to whom the Bride in prophecy is? Revelation 21:9-12, "Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
10. And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
11. having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
12. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed".


I show you scripture; can we believe Scripture?

Yes! And the Apostle Paul, speaking of the Church, states in 2Co 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Furthermore the New Jerusalem, the holy city, is as you note the Bride of Jesus Christ. Now Jesus Christ doesn't have two Brides so the New Jerusalem is the Church. You might find interesting the description of the holy city with the names of the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel.

By the way ituttut who do the 24 elders in Revelation 4 and 5 represent.

 

[Me4Him]

What does that have to do with God dying? I will repeat:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

To claim that God died is heresy! You have no understanding of God! You have no understanding of the Trinity! If God died then there is no God!

There was a heretical movement like this back in the 70's. It died then! Are you attempting to revive it?

Ok, Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, and he didn't die.

You like that interpretation better???

 

[DHK]

Ok, Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, and he didn't die.

You like that interpretation better???

Christ was wholly God and wholly man. He was sinless when we walked the face of this earth. He deliberately put aside many of His attributes such as his omnipotence when he said to Peter: "Know ye not that I could have called 12 legions of angels?" As God he was omnipotent, and could have defended himself, not going to the cross. But he went willingly and suffered as a man, a perfect man. It was his body that suffered. God is spirit. A spirit has no flesh.
God did not die. The body of Christ died. When Christ bore the penalty of our sin on the cross, the climactic moment was when Christ cried out:
"My God my God, Why hast thou forsaken me?"
It seemed at that moment in time, that for a moment God the Father turned his back on God the Son, while God the Son bore the weight of all the sins of mankind upon himself. Nevertheless God did not die.
Willingly Christ lay his life down, and willingly Christ arose by His own power. For He is God, Lord to the glory of the Father.
God cannot die.

 

[pilgrim2009]

I tell you what is hell bound heresy and millions believe it by these fancy tel-evangelist.Mostly TBN Preachers.

#1.Jesus was born again in hell.

#2.Jesus blood did not atone for sin.

#3.The Cross of Christ was the biggest failure in human history.

# 4.Jesus nature became demonic on the Cross.

#5.I am a little Messiah.

#6.I Am that I Am.

#7.When Jesus said I Am I look in the mirror and say I Am to.

#8.Jesus atoned for sin in hell not on the cross.

Brethren these are 8 sure tickets to hell andmillions finance this hell bound heresy.

God have mercy.

 

[brand]

Hi all,

I have not been able to read the whole thread, but to answer the original post (which may have already been well answered) anti-semitism is a loaded word. Used to refer to denial of the holocaust, I would take that as evil. Bandied about for every criticism of Judaism, it is over-used and abused.

So we do have this puzzle in that Jews that reject Christ, according to Paul, are in a special circumstance. We still need to criticize their unbelief. It is our duty. But then we do get confused in promoting some Israeli practices, and some Jewish practices wherever they are.

Its not easy to figure out. But, of course, the holocaust was real.

As for the current argument re: "god died" I am not getting the problem.

Where does the Bishop Sheen stuff fit with Nietschean stuff? The essential evil is not that "God died" but that it was denied that Christ rose again. Of course Jesus died and Jesus is God, but He is also now at the right hand of the Father and lives evermore. Of course the Father is not shown as dying, but the pain in heaven was just as deep as that on the cross. It had to be done. The Father had to place the sin of the world on Christ.

 

[ituttut]

Part 1 due to length

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Amen DHK. It is by faith we are to live our everyday lives. Much of what we find in the OT does apply in the NT, but not all.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Another Amen for this is an ongoing faith, of the just are to live by.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Again, I believe Habakkuk, just as I believe Paul in this matter. I have never said otherwise, believing no one is justified by the Law.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

I do believe the whole of the Bible. As I read I take note of who is being addressed. There is no question as to whom this book is written. We see it in it Title, and keeping in context within Chapter 10, we also note verses 30-31, "For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." His people are His people Israel, and no one else.

I'm not saying there is no truth in this for us, but again, I are careful in watching to who Books, Chapters, and Verses are written to. All Scripture is for our benefit, and learning, but all is not written to us. Ephesians is not written to Abraham, Moses, David, or those others, living in Their Own Time.

Those are other ages in which God dispensed His Grace, and in His Grace, in those ages, He Did Require they all do a work. Not one, No Not ONE, can we find in scripture were able to come Through the Faith of Jesus Christ, nor Come Through His Blood. Therefore, as they lived, they were not by the Grace of God, through faith, the hidden Gift of God, without a Work, chosen to be saved (As they Lived), Just Like We Gentiles. Hebrew Chapter 11 points out this very fact to us.

Then to verse 36 we find "For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised. I find in scripture His People are promised this earth. I am not His People, therefore without the promise. God knows who His people are, and those who are not, regardless of what they say.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I have no quarrel with this verse, as we are justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law. But do we understand that through faith, has brought about our Justification by faith, negating our need to make the Work of Blood Sacrifice. It is Through His Blood that that we can now live by faith, without Works.

In times past we are told the circumcised were justified Only by faith (with Works), Now the uncircumcised Are Justified through faith, without any works. So as I do believe the Bible, and know who I am, and know what is written To Me, I believe the Gospel of Paul, which Christ Jesus from heaven revealed to Him. Paul informs me (and all today as Peter will attest) that I am not of the by faith With Works, But now I can Live By Faith, as I have been justified through faith. Where can we find such a thing in the Word of God? I believe it is found in Romans 3, viz. in verse 30. "since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith."

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

To not contradict the above Romans 3:30, we must ask questions as we read this verse in Romans 5. By whose faith is it that we are Justified? Our Faith, or By the Faith of Jesus Christ. When we come Through our Lord Jesus Christ we are being justified through His Faith, therefore it is By His Faith. In believing God as we live, it is by faith alone (in Him) that we are justified.

If we read such verses as this to be justified by our faith without His Faith, we don't have a chance to be singing hallelujah's to Him in eternity. We must believe what Christ Jesus tells us from heaven TODAY, and that is By the Grace of God that we are saved through faith. Only through Him can we receive the Free Gift, for in HIS FAITH only can WE BE LIKE HIM (John 3:2).

The only way we can be like Him is if we believe what we find in Ephesians below, for that is the only way we can follow Him into Heaven, and be like Him.

Ephesians 1:17-20, "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
18. the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19. and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
20. which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places".

I read scripture to say that our Lord Jesus Christ, today, is seated on the Right Hand of His Father. If that is so, and if we are spiritually in the Body Of Christ, I find we In Him must be where He is, i.e. on that same level standing on the Right Side of Jesus Christ.

 

[Me4Him]

Christ was wholly God and wholly man. He was sinless when we walked the face of this earth. He deliberately put aside many of His attributes such as his omnipotence when he said to Peter: "Know ye not that I could have called 12 legions of angels?" As God he was omnipotent, and could have defended himself, not going to the cross. But he went willingly and suffered as a man, a perfect man. It was his body that suffered. God is spirit. A spirit has no flesh.
God did not die. The body of Christ died. When Christ bore the penalty of our sin on the cross, the climactic moment was when Christ cried out:
"My God my God, Why hast thou forsaken me?"
It seemed at that moment in time, that for a moment God the Father turned his back on God the Son, while God the Son bore the weight of all the sins of mankind upon himself. Nevertheless God did not die.
Willingly Christ lay his life down, and willingly Christ arose by His own power. For He is God, Lord to the glory of the Father.
God cannot die.

Like I said, If you don't understand the "TRINITY" of God you won't understand the Bible,

Israel believes in God, (the father) but not the "Son". Jesus.

It's not possible for God (the Father) to be lower than the angels, or die, but in Jesus the "Son", he did both.

Scripture is written to be understood in the Trinity, no Trinity/no understanding, just like Israel.

 

[ituttut]

Part 2

Before the NT writers ever came along, hundreds of years before the birth of Christ, Habakkuk proclaimed the NT message:
"The just shall live by faith."

And I agree we are to live By Faith, but no By Faith in ourselves.

This NT message gospel message was quoted twice in by NT writers, once by Paul, and once by the unknown writer of the book of Hebrews. How does a just person come to live by faith? He must be justified first. Paul elaborates on that. In Romans he declares:
"A man is justified by faith."
He also declares that because a man is justified by faith, "he has peace with God."

First I believe Paul to be the author of the Book of Hebrews, for He is the only Apostle to both the Gentile, and the Jew. II Peter, in chapter three tells us that Paul wrote One Book to the Hebrews. Peter said He and all the Apostles had all read the Epistles of Paul, and it is a good idea to try and understand Paul, for as the Apostle to both the Gentile, and the Jew, Paul is very difficult to understand.

I believe at every turn we endeavor to make sure Who is doing the talking, and Whom the Word is directed to. I learned in Journalism, and Law to make sense of anything we must Know the who, where, when, why, what, and the how of it.

On Damascus Road we know Who is involved, Where on the Road it happened, When it happened, Why it happened, What was said, and How it came about. Not until after Damascus Road can we find through faith justification to salvation. If we would only believe Paul we will see God had hidden from man, certain things. Peter in Acts 10 is the first to actually see this justification through the faith of Jesus Christ, for the remission of our sins. Peter, and those others with him of the Pentecostal faith saw with their own eyes a gospel that greatly differed from that of John the Baptist, of you men of Israel, you must repent, and you must be baptized for the remission of your sins. To believe any other things we do contradict His Word, and twist His Word to conform to our own religious belief.

Jesus gives a different aspect of this when he speaks of the New Birth in John 3, elaborating it to Nicodemus.

Please notice that John wrote all of his books about 30 years after the death of Paul. You will not find in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or James such a remark or understanding of what Jesus said in John 3:16. Scripture tells us they understood very little of what Jesus was talking about while He was with them on this earth. It is only after Pentecost He tells us the Holy Ghost will give them understanding of what He said, before being taken into heaven. But even then they did not come to the full knowledge of all that Jesus said, for it was a "secret" of God that could not be understood until God revealed to man the meaning of John 3:16. Pau taught, andl wrote this same thing in different wording long before Christ allowed John to write his books.

Essentially it is the same message. Peter also gives the message of the New Birth in 1Peter 1:23.

Peter's works were evidently written very close to the death of Paul, and not during Pentecost, or before Damascus Road. Again I say Peter says Paul had wisdom of God given to him, that no one else had, and Peter and all earthly Apostles had read all of Paul's Epistles, including the Book, just to them, the Hebrews.

The message has not changed. One must still be saved, justified. It is not a Peter message or a Paul message. It is the message of the gospel, which Peter said:


2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:


Remember or take heed to the words not just of Paul, but to all the apostles.

But we all are not of Israel, or of Prophecy or of the commandments of the circumcision gospel of those Apostles to ISRAEL.

With all due respect to you, one I believe who does Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we do differ, which I take to mean we must be in different parts of His Body. I myself find it necessary to believe the Word of God as presented by Paul. I also find it necessary to believe God personally from heaven appointed, and commissioned one Saul/Paul of Tarsus to be My only personal Official Apostle. Others don't seem to be able find this information in the Bible, or they disbelieve it; or simply decide to pass over it, for it will not fit into their Christian belief.

 

[ituttut]

Long before Paul Jesus Christ spoke the words of John 3:16. Hopefully ultra-dispensationalits have not cut those out of the Bible!

Yes Scripture says this, and I believe it. But do you not find it strange that no one else would touch this subject until Paul says the same thing in different wording. Paul was not with Jesus Christ while Jesus was on this earth, so He was not told to say the exact words that John heard Him say.

We know the Apostles could not make head or tails out of what Jesus told them while they were with Him, just as we wouldn't be able to do either. True the Holy Spirit would teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance whatsoever He had said to them. Did He do this. I know He did, but just as with Paul, they did not understand everything All at once, and remembrance of All things did not come all at once.

God said he hid certain things from man until…….? If we believe the Word of God from heaven definitive understanding of what Jesus said could not be told until after Damascus Road.

Why does one wonder that no earthly Apostle, or writer of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or James had an inkling of what Jesus meant by John 3:16, and we know all the NT Books were written after Pentecost. I wondered about this; If they knew why didn't they tell us this? They couldn't for they did not understand it, and the Holy Spirit had not revealed the meaning of it to them, and evidently had not yet given them remembrance of the wording.

John as we know had talked to Paul, and read all of Paul's Epistles, and did accept the wisdom given to Paul, just as Peter writes to His people in his second book, third chapter. Paul is very difficult to understand, but Peter says understand they must. We know John, just as Peter came to understand much, but neither of them evidently understood, and possibly not brought to their mind, until John wrote the exact words attributed to Jesus in John 3:16.

Peter wrote his books fairly close to the death of Paul, so why didn't Peter tell us about John 3:16? This evidently had not been brought to his remembrance. This is the reason John was chosen to tarry to bring, and confirm what Jesus had told Paul.

Paul revealed understanding of scripture to not only the Gentile, but also the Jew. Acts 9 confirms that Paul is appointed, and commissioned to go to the Gentile, and to the Jew.

Peter and the other earthly Apostles had the authority to go to the Gentile withdrawn, as Israel did not accept that Kingdom at hand, that was just forming. Israel turned down that Kingdom that Peter offered them in Acts 2:38, and 3:19-21.

When Israel refused that gospel, they knew They No Longer Had that Authority to Go To The Gentile. It would not have been in the will of God, as we find in Acts 15, and Galatians 2, most notably verse 9. This is scripture, whether we like it or not. Most do not like this part of scripture, for we say we knew all that Paul knew, because we have already read the Book of John, before we started reading any of Paul's Epistles.

Did you notice in John 3:1-21 Jesus shows that not only man at that time could not understand earthly things, so how in the world could they understand heavenly things, before John wrote his Books? Don't we find the answers in the Epistles of Paul. Where else can you find the Body of Christ, or the Rapture? How about the seven immutable one's in Ephesians 4:4-6,and surely we can't leave our how we all today should be justified. Of course, there is even more.

And to settle the matter you bring up isn't it Paul a few years after Pentecost, and many years before we learn from John, God so loved the world, that whoever believes in His Son, they will not perish, but have everlasting life". Can we not find this same information in Acts 15:30-31? "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Same wording as that said to Israel? Of course not. He reworded it to we Gentiles, for we will hear, giving us the ministry of reconciliation, and appointed us as ambassadors for Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

Ok, Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, and he didn't die.

You like that interpretation better???

I thought you didn't understand the Trinity. It is also obvious that you do not understand the incarnation.

Please tell me how God can die?

Tell me how long he stayed dead.

Scripture tells us: "by him all things consist." [Colossians 1:17]
Tell me who sustained the world while God was dead?

 

[OldRegular]

Yes Scripture says this, and I believe it. But do you not find it strange that no one else would touch this subject until Paul says the same thing in different wording. Paul was not with Jesus Christ while Jesus was on this earth, so He was not told to say the exact words that John heard Him say.

As usual Itittut you are incorrect:

Acts 15:7-11, KJV
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

[ituttut]

Yes! And the Apostle Paul, speaking of the Church, states in 2Co 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

So then let's believe what we are told. Are we not NOW This Moment in the Body Of Christ? Are we not now part of HIM? If we are in His Body, then we are in the Bridegroom, and we will be there at that Wedding to Come. It seems as if I am now in the Bridegroom, and will see you at the Wedding to come.

Furthermore the New Jerusalem, the holy city, is as you note the Bride of Jesus Christ. Now Jesus Christ doesn't have two Brides so the New Jerusalem is the Church. You might find interesting the description of the holy city with the names of the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I believe you misquote scripture, which brings you to wrong conclusions. It says no such thing as the Bride of Christ. Revelation speaks of the Bride of the Lamb. We know Jesus came as a Lamb to Israel, but not as Jesus Christ, for they refused such heresy. Your error is seeing all has been the same, completely leaving out the purpose of God.

By the way ituttut who do the 24 elders in Revelation 4 and 5 represent.

A leading question to be sure. As this is in Prophesy we know it has to do with Israel, and with Priests of Israel, and no one else. We can see this in I Chronicles 24:5-19. We in the Bridegroom cannot be clearly seen in Revelation for we are In our Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps a glimpse of us may be seen in Revelation 12:12.

 

[ituttut]

Hi all,

I have not been able to read the whole thread, but to answer the original post (which may have already been well answered) anti-semitism is a loaded word. Used to refer to denial of the holocaust, I would take that as evil. Bandied about for every criticism of Judaism, it is over-used and abused.

So we do have this puzzle in that Jews that reject Christ, according to Paul, are in a special circumstance. We still need to criticize their unbelief. It is our duty. But then we do get confused in promoting some Israeli practices, and some Jewish practices wherever they are.

Its not easy to figure out. But, of course, the holocaust was real.

As for the current argument re: "god died" I am not getting the problem.

Where does the Bishop Sheen stuff fit with Nietschean stuff? The essential evil is not that "God died" but that it was denied that Christ rose again. Of course Jesus died and Jesus is God, but He is also now at the right hand of the Father and lives evermore. Of course the Father is not shown as dying, but the pain in heaven was just as deep as that on the cross. It had to be done. The Father had to place the sin of the world on Christ.

I like that.

 

[ituttut]

As usual Itittut you are incorrect:

Acts 15:7-11, KJV
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Is this not after Damascus Road? God Bookended Paul with Peter, and John. How did Christianity come about, and how has it survived? Who would have believed Paul without the backing of the two that was on earth with Jesus? Even today people still dooubt Paul, for He did not know Jesus while He was on earth. We are today to know Jesus Christ as our Lord in Heaven sitting beside His Father, for that is where we are, by the Spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Yes! And the Apostle Paul, speaking of the Church, states in 2Co 11:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Response Posted by Ituttut
So then let's believe what we are told. Are we not NOW This Moment in the Body Of Christ? Are we not now part of HIM? If we are in His Body, then we are in the Bridegroom, and we will be there at that Wedding to Come. It seems as if I am now in the Bridegroom, and will see you at the Wedding to come.

In the passage from 2 Corinthians the apostle Paul is speaking of the Church which is obviously the Bride of Jesus Christ. You are not only incorrect you are denying the clear teaching of the one you seem to place before Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Furthermore the New Jerusalem, the holy city, is as you note the Bride of Jesus Christ. Now Jesus Christ doesn't have two Brides so the New Jerusalem is the Church. You might find interesting the description of the holy city with the names of the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel.

Response Posted by Ituttut
Please don't put words into my mouth.

I certainly would not want to put words in your mouth. I just assumed that all true Christians recognized that the New Jerusalem is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, or bride of Messiah Jesus if you prefer.

Response Posted by Ituttut
I believe you misquote scripture, which brings you to wrong conclusions. It says no such thing as the Bride of Christ. Revelation speaks of the Bride of the Lamb.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

The Lamb is Jesus Christ, or Messiah Jesus if you prefer. All you need do is read Revelation 4 and 5 as well as the Scripture I posted below.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Now the only one slain for the elect of God was Jesus Christ or Messiah Jesus If you prefer. To put the above Scripture in terms perhaps you can comprehend or at least accept I quote your idol, the Apostle Paul:

1Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Response Posted by Ituttut
We know Jesus came as a Lamb to Israel, but not as Jesus Christ, for they refused such heresy. Your error is seeing all has been the same, completely leaving out the purpose of God.

One would hope that the Holy Spirit would put truth in your mind rather than the heresy you are presenting. Frankly I have never heard such nonsense as the statement you make: “We know Jesus came as a Lamb to Israel, but not as Jesus Christ, for they refused such heresy.”

To say that Jesus came as Lamb to Israel but not as Messiah is the stupidest statement I have heard from someone who claims to be a Christian. To say that Israel “refused such heresy” is even worse. How do you dream up such nonsense? What is heretical about calling the Lamb of God the Messiah. For your learning He was the Messiah. Christ is the Greek name for Messiah.

Again I quote your idol, the Apostle Paul:

1Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Is the Apostle Paul, an Israelite, a heretic for recognizing Jesus Christ as the passover Lamb? Jesus Christ or Messiah Jesus was the passover Lamb sacrificed for the elect of God. If he is not my passover Lamb how could He be my Savior? He couldn’t. Furthermore consider what the Apostle John states:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

The above scripture is self explanatory for those who will learn.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
By the way ituttut who do the 24 elders in Revelation 4 and 5 represent.

Response Posted by Ituttut
A leading question to be sure. As this is in Prophesy we know it has to do with Israel, and with Priests of Israel, and no one else.

Are you really saying there is no prophecy regarding the Church in all the Bible? That all prophecy is only for Israel?

Response Posted by Ituttut
We can see this in I Chronicles 24:5-19. We in the Bridegroom cannot be clearly seen in Revelation for we are In our Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps a glimpse of us may be seen in Revelation 12:12.

Just what do you mean “we are in our Lord Jesus Christ”? If you are not careful you will be propogating the pantheistic heresy of Buddhism.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
As usual Itittut you are incorrect:

Acts 15:7-11, KJV
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Response Posted by Ituttut
Is this not after Damascus Road? God Bookended Paul with Peter, and John. How did Christianity come about, and how has it survived? Who would have believed Paul without the backing of the two that was on earth with Jesus? Even today people still dooubt Paul, for He did not know Jesus while He was on earth. We are today to know Jesus Christ as our Lord in Heaven sitting beside His Father, for that is where we are, by the Spirit.

You have repeatedly stated that Peter preached a different Gospel than Paul. Now that I show that Peter and Paul preached the one and only Gospel you crawfish.

Ituttut I hate to say it but you are making a liar out of God. You are presenting nothing but heresy on this Forum. The apostle Paul clearly stated that anyone who preached another Gospel, since there is only one, was accursed.

May God have mercy on You!

 

[OldRegular]

As for the current argument re: "god died" I am not getting the problem.

Where does the Bishop Sheen stuff fit with Nietschean stuff? The essential evil is not that "God died" but that it was denied that Christ rose again. Of course Jesus died and Jesus is God, but He is also now at the right hand of the Father and lives evermore. Of course the Father is not shown as dying, but the pain in heaven was just as deep as that on the cross. It had to be done. The Father had to place the sin of the world on Christ.

Are you saying God died? If so that is nonsense; God cannot die. If he did then there is no God and we are all without hope.

 

[DHK]

Is this not after Damascus Road? God Bookended Paul with Peter, and John. How did Christianity come about, and how has it survived? Who would have believed Paul without the backing of the two that was on earth with Jesus? Even today people still dooubt Paul, for He did not know Jesus while He was on earth. We are today to know Jesus Christ as our Lord in Heaven sitting beside His Father, for that is where we are, by the Spirit.

The very last gospel message is given by Jesus, and it is given in the last book of the Bible, given in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible, written after every other book was written.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[OldRegular]

How did Christianity come about, and how has it survived?

If you really want to know Ituttut I suggest you read the Bible all the way through, noting the Scripture presented by DHK above.

Christianity, the name given to the followers of Jesus Christ, came about for the simple reason that God promised the Redeemer in Genesis 3:15. It should be noted that the promise of Redemption preceded the call of Abraham and the people called Israel.

Christianity survives because of God's love for His elect and because Jesus Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church, which consists of all the elect of all time.

 

[convicted1]

Hello OldRegular

If the question of your OP is..........


I believe that me4him answered your question;
(Because the Jews are still God’s people.)

But I am not surprised that you don’t believe that, being as you reject “dispensationalism”.
--------------------------------------------------
But I have a question for you.

Undoubtedly you flatly reject any kind of a 7 year tribulation period, or for that matter a 1000 millennial reign of Christ.

My I ask your eschatology. How do you think this is all going to end?

With all due respect, I disagree with your assumption that the Jews are STILL God's people. When Jesus died on the cross and arose the third and appointed morning and then ascended to be on the right hand of the Father, He broke down the middle wall of petiton to make ALL who would believe a Jew inwardly by His blood that was shed on the cross. That is why all of Israel will be saved. In Ezekiel 37, when Ezekiel asked God who these people were after they were brought back to life, God said it was the whole house of Israel. The Jews have nothing more "special" in them than we do now. There is no more Jew nor Greek(Gentile), male nor female after what Jesus accomplished at Calvary.

Now, back to the topic of this thread.:smilewinkgrin: I am not "anti-semitic", but anti-anything that doesn't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

Willis