A Request of Site Authorities about Member Forthcomingness

[Johnv]

There's a difference between being a baptist and one's congregational affiliation. For several years, I attended a nondenom church that was not identified as baptist. That did not, however, make me "not baptist". So we need to tread lightly over accusing someone of "not being baptist".

Further, there's a certain concern over anonymity. Several years ago, when I attended a larger SBC church, someone from this board sought me out. That's simply unacceptible. There's a reasonable expectation of privacy and anonymity here, and I'd prefer that such an expectation be preserved.

Lastly, I'm concerned over moderators having to verify peoples' information. The job of a moderator is hard enough without having to be "integrity police".

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Well Agnus_Dei, it is probably with good reason we cannot edit our denominational affiliation: it limits what is happening here. We would have non-Baptists pretending to be Baptists to get access to Baptist-only areas.

Church of Christ adherents can post here. They are not automatically banned from joining.

If I understood DHK correctly, Catholics were banned because some of their best polemicists were showing up here proselytizing to Catholicism. It is against board policy to try to proselytize Baptists to another church group. These polemicists were showing up here proselytizing to Catholicism and concealing their identities. As a result, all Catholics were banned with few exceptions.

I agree with you that if Catholics are banned from joining, then going after the Catholic church or its people should not be allowed. As you and I both know, what a lot of people claim about Catholicism, the Catholic church, or Catholics themselves is baseless. If a person wants to revile those people, s/he ought to be told that there are next to no Catholics here and that there is no need for it.

However, just as the Catholic purge was apparently necessary, so also might another purge be needed. Rather than ban a whole church group, I advocate purging those individuals who refuse to be forthcoming about what church group they really represent.

what confuses me, is that I'm members of more than one Christian message board and sure, members are banned all the time, but their moderators do their job...moderate the discussions by keep them on track and ensuring the topics are what's debated. The BB is the only one that seems to have this secretive issue.

The "Baptist Only" sections don't concern me...I may take a gander and laugh, but if something catches my eye, I'll copy part of the Thread and post it in the "Other Christian Denominations" and begin the discussion.

Obviously, if one starts to post that salvation is only found in their particular faith and if you don't join their faith, you are lost, then that person needs to be banned.

BUT, if a Roman Catholic, Church of Christ, Anglican or Orthodox is simply defending their theology and presenting their theology in a way to engage one into thinking...hey, maybe I've been mistaken about this...and some along the way make the jump to a different faith, then so be it...that's not a reason to ban members.

In XC
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[Darron Steele]

There's a difference between being a baptist and one's congregational affiliation. For several years, I attended a nondenom church that was not identified as baptist. That did not, however, make me "not baptist". So we need to tread lightly over accusing someone of "not being baptist".

If you are not attending a Baptist church you are not Baptist.

Further, there's a certain concern over anonymity. Several years ago, when I attended a larger SBC church, someone from this board sought me out. That's simply unacceptible. There's a reasonable expectation of privacy and anonymity here, and I'd prefer that such an expectation be preserved.

Agreed, but that does not mean that we should not disclose our church group affiliation when the board registration calls us to do so.

That does not mean that we should hide or lie about our church group affiliation to make people less aware of our biases and preconceptions. Full disclosure of church group affiliation is called for in registration.

It is not that hard to put in our profiles `A Such-and-Such church' even if it is too late to register our current church group affiliation. It will not have people hunting down our congregations if we were not specific on where we live.

Lastly, I'm concerned over moderators having to verify peoples' information. The job of a moderator is hard enough without having to be "integrity police".

Agreed.

If a person has not disclosed any information that should reasonably lead members to know the person's church affiliation, that is easy. Simply look in the profile, and if there is no denominational affiliation given and no identification of what type of church s/he attends, then s/he is being evasive with church group affiliation. The site authority can see that and proceed accordingly.

As for apparent cases of lying, a member suspecting that a person lies about church group affiliation should have the burden of investigating a case, digging up posts with links, putting the case together, and then only afterward forwarding it to site authorities.

Some of these cases, however, are blatantly obvious. These cases are so blatant that they do everything but explicitly announce it!

 

[Johnv]

If you are not attending a Baptist church you are not Baptist.

A more accurate statement would be "If you are a member of a nonbaptist church, then you are not a Baptist". A Baptist simply attenting a nonbaptist church does not disqualify that person from being a Baptist.

 

[Darron Steele]

A more accurate statement would be "If you are a member of a nonbaptist church, then you are not a Baptist". A Baptist simply attenting a nonbaptist church does not disqualify that person from being a Baptist.

Denominations are made by assembly group on weekends. Every other time of the week, we are simply Christians who assemble with `Named Church.'

Therefore, if where you are normally are on Sunday mornings is any church congregation other than a Baptist congregation, you are not a Baptist.

My views resemble with striking similarity the views held by a church group called the General Convention of the Christian Church, or Christian Connexion. That group merged with Congregationalists back in 1931 and no longer exists. No congregations exist of the Christian Connexion anymore; my striking agreement with that church group that does not make me a member of the Christian Connexion.

My leanings toward the views of conservative Disciples of Christ when I was in the Churches of Christ did not make me a Disciple of Christ. My home congregation was in the Churches of Christ. I would never have conceived of claiming to be a Disciple of Christ.

You may be a Christian who
a) agrees mostly with Baptists
b) but is attending a `Such-and-such' congregation,
but you are not Baptist unless you are unable to assemble with any congregation, or your home congregation is Baptist.

 

[billwald]

Agree with the request.

On the other hand, the one who pays the piper names the tune. The board owners pay the piper.

 

[Johnv]

So if a Roman Catholic comes to a Baptist church, is that person no longer Roman Catholic?

 

[Darron Steele]

So if a Roman Catholic comes to a Baptist church, is that person no longer Roman Catholic?

Interesting question.

It depends:
a) Is the person's home congregation that Baptist congregation,
b) Is s/he loyal to that congregation as a Baptist congregation?
If `yes' to (a) and (b) then s/he ceases to be Roman Catholic. From what I understand having read Catholic literature, Catholic clergy would agree. For my view, s/he may continue to hold Catholic precepts, and s/he may not be Baptist, but s/he is not Catholic. If s/he is a Christian, then s/he is a Christian with mostly Catholic views who attends a Baptist congregation.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want access to Baptist privileges on a Baptist discussion board, but you do not want to commit to a Baptist congregation. You want privileges of being identified as Baptist but you do not want to commit to a Baptist congregation.

I am not a Baptist talking down to you. Even as a non-Baptist, I can tell you that what you are trying to pull is indefensible.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Agree with the request.

On the other hand, the one who pays the piper names the tune. The board owners pay the piper.

I believe it's more to it than that....but, charge for a membership and problem solved...there's tons of Free Christian Message Boards that don't seems to have the problems as outlined here.

In XC
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[donnA]

personally, I'd like to see the BB admin allow a way to edit your "Denomination" in your profile...you can edit everything else...

and also to open the membership back up to Catholics or Church of Christ (if they're not allowed to join), that'll curb a lot of the misrepresentation of BB members. Because when you ban a specific faith, ie. Catholics from joining, you're going to get the blowback BB is experiencing.

In XC
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What the dishonesty, lies? Are you saying these are Catholics and CofC? I really wouldn't know. but why would a christian purposely lie about who they are, for what, for an internet message board they compromise their faith?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What the dishonesty, lies? Are you saying these are Catholics and CofC? I really wouldn't know. but why would a christian purposely lie about who they are, for what, for an internet message board they compromise their faith?

It does seem kind of pointless doesn't it?

 

[donnA]

Now that is scary. Being stalked by BB members in your life. How is that Christian? And I can't believe someone would call your pastor because they disagree with you about something! Thats seems like a mental illness issue. Were these people violent?

Not violent to my knowledge, rough in a pm, but I quit reading most Pms I get by then too becasue of it. They were immediatly banned for it, they sent me a pm admitting what they'd done threateneing me. I forwarded the pm the an admin, they were banned within minutes.
It's hjappened even more seriously to others here before, can't say who, don't want to violate anyones privacy, they aren't here anylonger becasue of it. Stalker was also immediately banned in that case also. They take this seriously here.

Further, there's a certain concern over anonymity. Several years ago, when I attended a larger SBC church, someone from this board sought me out. That's simply unacceptible. There's a reasonable expectation of privacy and anonymity here, and I'd prefer that such an expectation be preserved.

I was thinking that was you I remembered that happening too.

 

[donnA]

Ditto - I've been Anglican for over two years now and haven't been able to edit my profile to reflect that

wonder if you could ask an admin if they have the ability to change it for you. don't know that they can though.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not violent to my knowledge, rough in a pm, but I quit reading most Pms I get by then too becasue of it. They were immediatly banned for it, they sent me a pm admitting what they'd done threateneing me. I forwarded the pm the an admin, they were banned within minutes.
It's hjappened even more seriously to others here before, can't say who, don't want to violate anyones privacy, they aren't here anylonger becasue of it. Stalker was also immediately banned in that case also. They take this seriously here.

I'm glad to hear it. That's why I support my amendment rights.

 

[donnA]

i would think whatever denom a person is currently a member of would determin if they're baptist or not. although at one time the rules were you ahd to be an activemember, menaing actually attending a baptist church also.

 

[Johnv]

Then, Darron, by your a Baptist attending a nonbaptist church is still a Baptist if the attending church is not his/her home congregation, and s/he is not loyal to that congregation.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want access to Baptist privileges on a Baptist discussion board, but you do not want to commit to a Baptist congregation. You want privileges of being identified as Baptist but you do not want to commit to a Baptist congregation.

You might want to retract that. I'm a Baptist and an active member of my Baptist church. So I'm not trying to "pull" anything.

 

[Darron Steele]

What the dishonesty, lies? Are you saying these are Catholics and CofC? I really wouldn't know. but why would a christian purposely lie about who they are, for what, for an internet message board they compromise their faith?

It does seem kind of pointless doesn't it?

You would think so, but there is a reason why they do these sorts of things.

They know that if members knew they were trying to proselytize them over to Catholicism or the churches of Christ, they would be less receptive to the views they promote.

Therefore, they hide being Catholic or being Church of Christ adherents. They might even pretend to be Baptist.

Then, they advocate views that are aimed at leading members away from their current church groups and toward the proselytizers' groups. Ideally, no one has any suspicion that the goal is to proselytize them to groups they would not be open to.

These people are aware that being forthcoming and truthful about the church group for which they are agents would undermine their proselytizing efforts.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

i would think whatever denom a person is currently a member of would determin if they're baptist or not. although at one time the rules were you ahd to be an activemember, menaing actually attending a baptist church also.

I attend a baptist church (Southern Baptist). And I've been told to tow the party line (which in a SBC can be very varied). I've been told that I may not ask questions that question anything that the many baptist denominations hold to. (though I find that difficult since many in my church like calvinism from a covenant theory point of view and there are free will baptist). I am not permitted to have personal ideas, opinions, or burgeoning opinions that are in anyway questionable to someones perspective of a baptist. So I click my heels, raise my right hand palm out and shout Jawol! And hope the witch hunters don't show up at my door to burn me at the stake. (though there are those I agree with that burning at the steak may not be so bad). Which is a shame because I can only question things here that I don't at my church and have people from different perspectives answer. Oh well. I guess I have to sound like every one else and let drool fall out of the corner of my mouth as my brain shrivels up for lack of thought. Do I have to by into Carrolls history as well? Or maybe some people are offended not because of the debate but because they have questions as well and are uncomfortable? Let me say this as a Catholic I was a terrible sinner without conscience. My life changed dramatically when I was born again (which include the "sinners prayer" and an "alter call" and a "re-baptism") and no matter what information I am able to obtain in the study of history and theology; that fact will not change. And it is this fact I hold to and points to salvation. Apart from salvation this would not have occured. But I am comfortable in my salvation that I can ask these questions with out fear of loss.

 

[Darron Steele]

Then, Darron, by your a Baptist attending a nonbaptist church is still a Baptist if the attending church is not his/her home congregation, and s/he is not loyal to that congregation.

The history of my denomination is littered with people who pretended to be one thing to influence the affairs of congregations they were not loyal to. Back before the Brotherhood Restructure of the 1960's Disciples of Christ, we were one fellowship with what became the Independent Christian churches. Some congregations believed in cooperative enterprises and participated in them; others were opposed to them. People loyal to the non-cooperative congregations would join membership in cooperative congregations, get a measure passed withdrawing from cooperative enterprises -- and then promptly leave that congregation to do the same to another.

Attendance does not mean loyalty. These people were not attending non-cooperative congregations, but their loyalty was to non-cooperative congregations. Regardless of where they were, they had committed their loyalty to non-cooperative congregations. They had absolutely no business pretending to be part of the cooperative portion of the brotherhood.

I know that you are splitting hairs trying to justify something, namely continuing to present yourself Baptist even when you are committed to a non-Baptist congregation.

It ought to be evident to any reader that no amount of sophistry can make that okay.

If I was to attend my Disciples of Christ congregation, but decide that I want to call myself Baptist, and write to the nearest Baptist church and ask for membership privileges to be extended to me while I stayed at my congregation, would I be out of line? Yes I would. The Baptist congregation hopefully would expect me to attend their congregation regularly, then they would consider whether or not I could be a member and have membership privileges.

If I was to actually follow that directive, and go to the Baptist congregation regularly for home congregation, I would no longer be entitled to claim to be a Disciple of Christ. This would especially be the case if I was to place membership at the Baptist congregation. If I was to turn around, decide to go to the seminary in Indianapolis and register as a Disciple of Christ to get reduced tuition, while attending a Baptist congregation as a member, I would be in serious trouble. I would not be a Disciple, but a Baptist.

If a person is attending a non-Baptist congregation for home congregation, s/he has no business claiming to be Baptist here.

You might want to retract that. I'm a Baptist and an active member of my Baptist church. So I'm not trying to "pull" anything.

Really? I thought you said you were attending a non-denominational congregation.

I stand by what I said. If you are currently a member of a Baptist congregation, but leave it and join a non-Baptist congregation, you will not be entitled to claim the privileges of identifying yourself as Baptist. As a non-Baptist myself, it is inconceivable to me that you would claim you are entitled to do so.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

What the dishonesty, lies? Are you saying these are Catholics and CofC? I really wouldn't know. but why would a christian purposely lie about who they are, for what, for an internet message board they compromise their faith?

Going back to an earlier post of yours...I'm not familiar with stalking in regard to BB members and I don't see a problem with listing "Baptist" as a Denomination, leaving your home Church blank and listing a generic area of residence...like "SE Kansas", but that's not the OP's discussing.

Now, I don't know who Darron Steele is referring to in his OP. I'm just using "Catholic" as an example....

Here's how I understand it...This is a Baptist Board, that's owed by a Baptist...nothing wrong with that and I understand that this person pays for this site.

BUT, there's places that are marked "Baptist ONLY"...nothing wrong with that, and there's an area marked "Other Christian Denominations", which means, people of other denominations may join and participate in areas that are NOT labeled "Baptist ONLY".

Back in the late '90's Catholics were members of the BB that participated in the "Other Christian Denomination" area. What happened was a Moderator or two and some active BB members who were Baptists began to sympathize with the Catholics and later swam the Tiber and became Catholics...then came the great Catholic purge.

Now, if a Catholic stumbles across this BB, reads some threads that are discussing his faith, naturally, he'll want to participate. He applies for membership, as a Catholic NOT knowing Catholics are not allowed, they are denied. He continues to read the threads, so he applies again as a "Christian" instead of "Catholic" and eventually he get's labeled and figured out and is banned.

This is called Blowback...you ban a specific faith, yet you allow threads to talk of the Catholic Theology, and you get what we have.

With the many, many, Baptist sub-denominations there are, the BB could close all membership to "Baptist ONLY" and ban all NON-Baptist, and still have enough to debate about, without others adding to the mix!

Personally, I don't believe it's right for anyone to decide who is and isn't a Christian and not allow them to join. It's also my opinion that Baptists should be confident in what they believe and if their easily persuaded, then they were never sure of what they believed to begin with...if they're new to the Baptist faith, then maybe they should stay away from an open forum, until they are firm in their faith. But just B/C a Catholic is more skilled at his apologetics than some Baptists, the Baptists need to adjust their apologetic skills to counter it, instead of referring to them as heretics or heresy and thus flaming.

In XC
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