A return to it's theological foundation

[Iconoclast]

So a carnal Luke-warm "supposed Christian" is not a true Christian......have I got that right?

Where did I use that language ewf?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Imagine your giving an account on Judgment Day for your words & actions. The Bible clearly teaches this:

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! (James 2:12,13)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Where did I use that language ewf?

You used 'Carnal' & I embellished by adding Luke-Warm.

And to my brethren, my name is "STEVE"

 

[Iconoclast]

See post #16. Heaven on the brain is positive reinforcement; it greatly encourages one to take joy in, and set their affections on things above, and not on things of the earth. 'The joy of the Lord is our strength' and Icon's incessant warnings of hell fire damnation towards the redeemed takes the good news out of the gospel and ultimately brings one's attention down to this plane of sin & woe.

A biblical warning for self examination is not a threat to a redeemed sinner, in the same way a warning given near a gas pump at the gas station that there should be no smoking or open flame near the pumping Of gas.
Not everyone who assembles among the local churches is an overcomer rev2-3.

 

[Iconoclast]

You used 'Carnal' & I embellished by adding Luke-Warm

In my world there is a difference between carnal,je unsaved, and drifting believers.those under the dominion of the flesh are unsaved.
Those who cannot bridle their tongue and are constantly profane have no reason to believe they are Kingdom members.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In my world there is a difference between carnal,je unsaved, and drifting believers.those under the dominion of the flesh are unsaved.
Those who cannot bridle their tongue and are constantly profane have no reason to believe they are Kingdom members.

You point to specific points you consider uncharacteristic of a christian......I go a bit deeper, for example the 10 commandments, the sermon on the mount. I believe it to be a change of the heart....... can & do you love the Lord your God with all your heart & soul. do you love your neighbor as yourself? If so, you will see a change in the person who falls in love with the Lord, and I believe this to be characteristic of a real christian.

 

[HankD]

That God saves sinners is without question. The main question is what means does God ordinarily use to save sinners?

I would not say sometimes....I would say most all the time God uses Christians to speak and teach the unsaved, he has ordained faithful preaching, teaching, living, and serving as means to convert sinners into saints.
I do not "know" what most PB do. I only know about those i interact with, or read some of their printed ideas, doctrinal statements and quite frankly it offers next to nothing as far as I am am concerned.
What do I mean by that? Am I just being a wise guy? No.
Think it out. Cals already believe the five points so the PB offers nothing new because elction does not surprise or confuse a Cal.
The PB goes beyond scripture and seeks to divorce the teaching from real life. That is why they alone come up with these odd categories, time salvation, absoluters, no hellers, etc.....this is time wasting nonsense and carnal speculation basd on a wrong view of the teaching.
That PB churches exist does not bother me personally....do you know why? I have never has a PB person approach me with any kind of gospel presentation, nor have I ever heard or seen a PB person in public presenting the gospel , because they sit back with a hyper -cal kind of complacency.
They think they can defend this....and perhaps one day many of them will get that chance like the man who hid the one talent that he was given......I am not their judge Steve, but I cannot defend that unbiblical extreme. If they feel they can, it is no skin off my nose. they do not bother me.....I am responsible to do what i can faithfully.
It does not bother me if people speak against me, accuse me of being or acting like "an Arminian".....I speak to every person i can about the scriptures, their sin, and a God who has placed His love In His Son and the blood of the cross.
Do I trick them, or use carnal emotional reasoning like Arminians....NO....but I prayerfully zero in on the sin question, the authority of God and His word, and the fact that All the Father has given to the Son...WILL COME TO JESUS....at a point in time, mainly through the word preached;
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


That is not what I am reading Steve.....how do you know by the way? Have you ever even been in a PB church? how many times? I think you have not been there...tell me if i am wrong.

Well you know Steve I am pretty straight forward...I hope you understand clearer now....Like here...You say ...US?...You are not a member of that church in any local place....you think you identify with it's teaching, but you really do not know.

.

If you are going to pray for me, pray that God keeps providing gospel opportunities for me each day. PB churches are not a hobby of mine...in fact to be honest...they do ot catch my attnetion for any reason. I see some of them in the south....small buildings, never open for the most part, have not seen any signs of life in them....I will take some pictures of those i see if you want.

The Primitive Baptists in my estimation have always fulfilled "The Great Commission" (So-called).

And I personally am a strong defender of the Great Commission even though the PB's say that this and like passages were given to the then living apostles and disciples and yes, I agree .At least in my reading of their multi-faceted doctrinal positions this is an all-encompassing belief.

Explanation(s):

A few years back I became very interested in the PBs and found that the closest PB church was about a hundred miles + away from me. I communicated with a male member of that local church and he was very responsive and kind to my inquiries and sent me much reading material.

Consider:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Note the several "and"s in the passage : in the vernacular: First "Be witnesses" then be witnesses by degrees of distance from the locale e.g. Kentucky, the USA and everywhere else.

The very fact that a group has a visible local church makes them a witness.
The passage does not definitively say that we are compelled to go to the uttermost parts of the world to be said witnesses.

But why should the knowledgeable children of God go everywhere in the world preaching/teaching the word?

Because IMO this "command" is encapsulated in the following verse seeing that Jesus and His church lives on after His death burial and resurrection and is to those who go on after His ascension:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

To be forthright I am a little disappointed that they are so close knit and that if they are believing of their own doctrine (and of course I believe they are, just that they are a bit sluggish as we all are in varying areas) that they do not spread out more folks into the out lying regions of the earth to let the languishing children of God know who they are and our Fathers expectations of His children.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.


HankD

 

[rlvaughn]

A few decades ago while doing a study of Universalism I became very interested in our Primitive Baptist (PB) brethren and a small Appalachian group of PB's called "no-hellers" because as far as I know they are the only Trinitarian Universalists (as opposed to Unitarian) in existence today.

It's a misnomer because they do believe in hell, howbeit that its a temporary place kind of like the Roman Purgatorio.

Hank, the 3 PB Universalist associations that Howard Dorgan wrote about in In the Hands of a Happy God believed that all of what is "hell" was experienced here on earth. Are the ones who believe in the Purgatory a different group, or are you using that term to describe their belief of Hell on earth?

Thanks!

 

[HankD]

Hank, the 3 PB Universalist associations that Howard Dorgan wrote about in In the Hands of a Happy God believed that all of what is "hell" was experienced here on earth. Are the ones who believe in the Purgatory a different group, or are you using that term to describe their belief of Hell on earth?

Thanks!

I used the term "purgatory" in a generic sense as a springboard to the Primitive Baptist Universalists (PBU) belief that hell indeed exists but is not a place of eternal suffering. In my research - yes the majority of PBU's hold to the belief that said "hell" is a kind of earthly "state of being" (however doctrinally speaking some have objected that it might continue on after the spirit leaves the body - but not forever).

Yes I am aware of Howard Dorgan and his book which I have read in part.

If you did not know here is a quote from a website you will probably be very interested in because it not only contains a great deal of historical information it will lead you on a path which will take several days (or more) to traverse with other websites and authors.

The PBU movement contributes yet another colorful square in the diverse patchwork quilt that Appalachian religion has become.

http://www.appalachianhistory.net/2011/06/hellers-or-no-hellers.html

Indeed the Appalachian area has brought forth a great and unparalleled history of their local Baptist churches and their many and amazing in-family disputes which are reminiscent (to me) of the disputes among the ECF.

Again to be forthright I don't agree with some of these beliefs but have always admired their zeal which I have discovered to be profound among Baptists.

HankD

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks for the link, Hank. I may have read that before, but many times I forget more than I remember. I know this is a kind of singular focus that is not directly on your topic. But since you are aware of the Appalachian Baptists, I wonder if you might have any advice on finding the following:

The Little Home Church and the question of racial harmony within Old Regularism by Howard Dorgan
And
Salvation of All Mankind; and Treatise on Predestination by Charles F. Nickels

So far I've only e-mailed and haven't called anyone on the phone yet, but I have not gotten anyone to respond to this request.

Thanks.

 

[HankD]

Thanks for the link, Hank. I may have read that before, but many times I forget more than I remember. I know this is a kind of singular focus that is not directly on your topic. But since you are aware of the Appalachian Baptists, I wonder if you might have any advice on finding the following:

The Little Home Church and the question of racial harmony within Old Regularism by Howard Dorgan
And
Salvation of All Mankind; and Treatise on Predestination by Charles F. Nickels

So far I've only e-mailed and haven't called anyone on the phone yet, but I have not gotten anyone to respond to this request.

Thanks.

I will see what I can do rl. give me a little time.

Thanks
HankD

 

[HankD]

rl, there is an Amazon's author page for brother Dorgan:

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=howard+dorgan&tag=baptis04-20

They only show four books but maybe email them, they may have more.

OK one of the books is at:

Advertised as limited availability

HankD

 

[HankD]

Try this for Nickels:

https://books.google.com/books?id=8...EIUDAQ#v=onepage&q=Charles F. Nickels&f=false

HankD

 

[HankD]

If we are going to stick strictly to the word (and we must - Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God) directly or in a summary statement then IMO this passage must be considered.

Revelation 2
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death ...

So these are declared the servants of God and I don't see any way out of that passage that these are His beloved.

This is IMO given as an example as to how deeply committed to sin His own can find themselves.
Note that they will (if not repentant - to change one's mind - ) and if they are identified as "her children" be put to death, similarly Paul says to the "carnal" at Corinth that many are weak, sickly and some even sleep.

possibly similarly John's "sin unto death" in his epistle through the Holy Spirit of inspiration.

So if there is such a thing as a "carnal" Christian then "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die".


HankD

 

[HankD]

oops, internet theologian, my humblest apologies if I was unclear. What is your objection.
Remember I said I was speaking vicariously as a PB and don't necessarily agree with all their doctrine, but some, yes.

Also note that I put "carnal" in quotes. I do however believe that the flesh (though that old-man should have been put in a coffin) can be awakened like the vampire that he is when darkness comes.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Not everyone who assembles among the local churches is an overcomer rev2-3.

So? What? Is that what your 'mission field' is, to warn and convert false professors here on the BB?

Question: If someone has been predestined by God before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son how could they ever be a 'false professor' BOUND FOR HELL?

You claim to hold to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace yet you gom it all up with these stupid contradictions.

 

[kyredneck]

self examination

But that's not what you do here. You examine others.

 

[Iconoclast]

So? What? Is that what your 'mission field' is, to warn and convert false professors here on the BB?

Question: If someone has been predestined by God before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son how could they ever be a 'false professor' BOUND FOR HELL?

You claim to hold to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace yet you gom it all up with these stupid contradictions.

Kyred
The scripture speaks of both truths at the same time. You only speak of one truth and want to exclude the other.
God has revealed He has purposed to save a multitude of sinners in Himself. From the Divine side the exact number and persons were both fixed and certain.
You do not know who they are....do you?
Unlike Evans friend......no one knows who they are.
That is why the scripture addresses the means God uses and all the teaching mentioning he who overcomes, about diligently seeking holiness, taking the Kingdom, pressing toward the mark of the high calling, being saved as by fire,examine yourself,etc.......I see that as truth....you say it is a contradiction.

 

[Iconoclast]

But that's not what you do here. You examine others.

Maybe you can quote me doing this?
You make the accusation. ....now show it!

 

[HankD]

Who are the overcomers?

1 John 5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Anyone here on the BB who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God raise your hand so we can pray for you.

Just kiddin'

HankD