A reversal on waterboarding

[canadyjd]

Thanks Matt for making an horable change in your personal views.

I agree that Matt's change in personal views is horrible, but I wouldn't thank him for it.:smilewinkgrin:

This is what it takes to be a Christian in this day-and age!!!

And here I thought the truths of Christ found in scripture were timeless.

Apparently, you believe Christianity has to "change with the times" to be relevant.

Don't homos*xuals make the same argument for same-s*x marriage? Why, yes they do.

I'm surprised at the company you are keeping in this "day-and-age" Pastor Paul...........are you?

peace to youraying:

 

[Gold Dragon]

In conclusion: Water-boarding is only bad when it is done in a manner that results in the death of the detainee.

By definition, torture does not result in death because you cannot get information from a dead person.

The other reason torture has been practiced is to get someone to change their ideological position on something. Once again, a dead person can't change their ideological position.

 

[steaver]

Mod Note: No, but you can start another thread on the topic. Let's stick with matt's OP. Thanks.

Here is Matt's OP....

Matt OP:

I just thought I'd post that I've made a reversal on my opinion of waterboarding. I don't believe it is torture and I have no problem with it being utilized to extract information.

Thanks for the healthy (and sometimes not so healthy) debate on the topic.

Subject: "Waterboarding/Torture"

Here is my Post...

Steaver:

I had asked a few others and received no response about "self-defense" from a Christian pov. When is torture ok as a "self-defense" such as war itself as dropping bombs knowing some children will be tortured and killed by such an action? Any thoughts?

Why is it you see my question as "off topic"? I don't get it! If my question is off topic then just about every post in this thread is off topic. I wish to broaden the definition of torture in a thread about torture. This happens ALL the time on these threads.

Here is canadyjd's post...

Don't homos*xuals make the same argument for same-s*x marriage? Why, yes they do.

I'm surprised at the company you are keeping in this "day-and-age" Pastor Paul...........are you?

Canadyjd didn't get any comments from the Mod to start a new thread. My question was on torture, putting forth an argument as to waht torture is defined as. And I keep getting "start a new thread, it is off topic".

 

[righteousdude2]

Were You Drinking Kool-Aid Again?

I agree that Matt's change in personal views is horrible, but I wouldn't thank him for it.:smilewinkgrin:And here I thought the truths of Christ found in scripture were timeless.

Apparently, you believe Christianity has to "change with the times" to be relevant.

Don't homos*xuals make the same argument for same-s*x marriage? Why, yes they do.

I'm surprised at the company you are keeping in this "day-and-age" Pastor Paul...........are you?

peace to youraying:

I do not understand where canadyjd is coming from. First of all, I think if I want to thank Matt for being a "stand-up" guy for admitting his error on the subject, that is my "right!" I did not connect the dots to anything in Scripture!!!!

And in regard to your comments on "homos*xuals and the argument for same-s*x marriage?" where did this topic come from? I don't understand where your nasty disposition, and angry tone came from.

How you could pull these thoughts from my post is ludicrous. It is apparent that you have some pent up anger that you've been waiting to dump on me.

Get a life canadyjd, I said nothing that even comes close to you "Twi-light Zone" accusations.

Peace back to you!!!!

 

[poncho]

My first question is this, does torture or for those amongst us who are more euphemistically inclined "enhanced interrogation techniques" really work?

This (my second question) may sound dumb but shouldnt my first question be answered before we get into the legal and moral aspects of this debate?

 

[windcatcher]

My first question is this, does torture or for those amongst us who are more euphemistically inclined "enhanced interrogation techniques" really work?

This (my second question) may sound dumb but shouldnt my first question be answered before we get into the legal and moral aspects of this debate?

To Q#1.....
Don't know. When I was 12 and daddy asked us all front and center in the living room to answer.... who took the cardboard out of the toilet roll.... and either no one remembered or were to scared to tell..... When he started to belt us all in descending order until someone confessed... a brother stepped forward and took the 'strapping' and resents my dad to this day for it.

Daddy got the answer he was looking for. To this day none of us know who took the card board out of the roll of tp.... but evidentally.... it meant a WHOLE lot to daddy. (Children at that age may do lots of things without thinking.... and honestly forget.)

 

[targus]

My first question is this, does torture or for those amongst us who are more euphemistically inclined "enhanced interrogation techniques" really work?

Appearently it does. We have been told that information was obtained that thwarted terrorist attacks.

This (my second question) may sound dumb but shouldnt my first question be answered before we get into the legal and moral aspects of this debate?

That is a reasonable question.

 

[canadyjd]

I do not understand where canadyjd is coming from. First of all, I think if I want to thank Matt for being a "stand-up" guy for admitting his error on the subject, that is my "right!"

Pastor Paul, you misspelled the word "honorable" and instead wrote "horable". I made a joke on your misspelled word, saying I agreed the decision was "horrible". It was a joke, and I put in a smile, wink, grin smilewinkgrin so everybody could see it was a joke. Sorry you missed it.

I did not connect the dots to anything in Scripture!!!!

Agreed, your position has no basis in scripture.:smilewinkgrin: Please note the smile, wink, grin. That means I am making a joke from what you said.

And in regard to your comments on "homos*xuals and the argument for same-s*x marriage?" where did this topic come from? I

It came from your comment that "that's what it takes to be a Christian in this day-and-age", or words to that effect.

I responded that the truths of Christ are timeless. That means to be a Christian "in this day and age" is really no different from being a Christian in any day and age. You cannot allow morality to become relative. If support for torture is condemned by scripture and the teachings of Christ, then it makes no difference what happens to Christians in "this day and age", because torture is still condemned by scripture and the teachings of Christ. You cannot argue that to be a Christian "in this day and age", means ignoring what scriptures says.

The argument that you made about "this day and age", is exactly the same argument that homos*uals use to justify same s*x marriage. They are saying to be a Christian "in this day and age" means ignoring out of date ideas concerning homos*xuality and g*y marriage found in scripture.

How you could pull these thoughts from my post is ludicrous. It is apparent that you have some pent up anger that you've been waiting to dump on me.

No pent up anger, brother, just love and hugs. :1_grouphug:

peace to youraying:

 

[righteousdude2]

"Mm, Mm, Good; Humble Pie That Is!"

Pastor Paul, you misspelled the word "honorable" and instead wrote "horable". I made a joke on your misspelled word, saying I agreed the decision was "horrible". It was a joke, and I put in a smile, wink, grin so everybody could see it was a joke. Sorry you missed it.Agreed, your position has no basis in scripture.:smilewinkgrin: Please note the smile, wink, grin. That means I am making a joke from what you said.It came from your comment that "that's what it takes to be a Christian in this day-and-age", or words to that effect.

I responded that the truths of Christ are timeless. That means to be a Christian "in this day and age" is really no different from being a Christian in any day and age. You cannot allow morality to become relative. If support for torture is condemned by scripture and the teachings of Christ, then it makes no difference what happens to Christians in "this day and age", because torture is still condemned by scripture and the teachings of Christ. You cannot argue that to be a Christian "in this day and age", means ignoring what scriptures says.

The argument that you made about "this day and age", is exactly the same argument that homos*uals use to justify same s*x marriage. They are saying to be a Christian "in this day and age" means ignoring out of date ideas concerning homos*xuality and g*y marriage found in scripture.

No pent up anger, brother, just love and hugs.
peace to youraying:

You are a great cook canadyjd....and I certainly misread your entire post. My bad on several occasions, I beg your forgiveness for jumping to conclusions [and jumping to conclusions is like jumping over the side of the steep canyon.

Sorry for misreading your thread. And you're right, I did misspell honorable....I can honestly tell you that I was wearing my feelings on the tips of my shoulders, and never caught your "puns".

You and I've come so far on this board, and I can only hope we don;t allow this to come between us. As for the homos@xual thing: While it is true that they are BENDING the Message of the Gospel, and using HOLY Scripture to make their points,:tear: they shall experience the true wrath of God in eternity. It just a shame that so many talented people will be destroyed in the end!

Shalom, and Peace to You,:type:

Pastor Paul

 

[poncho]

Appearently it does. We have been told that information was obtained that thwarted terrorist attacks.

Correct. This is what we were told. But, we were told this by an administration (and corporate media) who started a war and occupation on bogus and misinformation, used "message force multipliers" as propagandists to spread pentagon "themes" on tv and radio and spent at least 2 billion dollars on fake news reports. Oh and we can't forget that we were also told there were serious terrorist threats and the alert levels raised whenever this same administration was questioned or whenever the polls showed their political opposition to be gaining or leading.

That is a reasonable question.

Would it be un-reasonable to doubt the word of those who misinformed and mislead us on pretty much everything else they told us?

 

[canadyjd]

You are a great cook canadyjd....and I certainly misread your entire post. My bad on several occasions, I beg your forgiveness for jumping to conclusions...Sorry for misreading your thread. And you're right, I did misspell honorable....I can honestly tell you that I was wearing my feelings on the tips of my shoulders, and never caught your "puns"...You and I've come so far on this board, and I can only hope we don;t allow this to come between us.

Aww shucks, Pastor Paul, I enjoy the passion you show in your posts. We agree more than not. Just remember, whether I agree with you or disagree, I will never have hard feelings about it.:thumbs:

As for the homos@xual thing: While it is true that they are BENDING the Message of the Gospel, and using HOLY Scripture to make their points....

I agree.

I've seen your desire to remain true to scripture, and that is all that I was trying to get you to do on the issue of torture. Don't believe for a second that Christians, in "this day and age" have to "bend the rules" like other groups and ignore scripture.

It is exactly during such times as these that Christianity reveals itself among those who refuse to compromise the teachings of Christ, even against those who would kill us and our friends and our families.

peace to youraying:

 

[poncho]

Aww shucks, Pastor Paul, I enjoy the passion you show in your posts. We agree more than not. Just remember, whether I agree with you or disagree, I will never have hard feelings about it.:thumbs:I agree.

I've seen your desire to remain true to scripture, and that is all that I was trying to get you to do on the issue of torture. Don't believe for a second that Christians, in "this day and age" have to "bend the rules" like other groups and ignore scripture.

It is exactly during such times as these that Christianity reveals itself among those who refuse to compromise the teachings of Christ, even against those who would kill us and our friends and our families.

peace to youraying:

You mean Christains aren't to accept "world views" on questions of morality? :tonofbricks:

How else are we ever going to get that wonderful self righteous feeling if we refuse to accept "world views" on questions of morality?

 

[righteousdude2]

Back on Track.....

Aww shucks, Pastor Paul, I enjoy the passion you show in your posts. We agree more than not. Just remember, whether I agree with you or disagree, I will never have hard feelings about it.:thumbs:I agree.

I've seen your desire to remain true to scripture, and that is all that I was trying to get you to do on the issue of torture. Don't believe for a second that Christians, in "this day and age" have to "bend the rules" like other groups and ignore scripture.

It is exactly during such times as these that Christianity reveals itself among those who refuse to compromise the teachings of Christ, even against those who would kill us and our friends and our families.

peace to youraying:

I do care that the it is probable that we could one day be hauled before an American tribunal and subjected to the torture some of us have backed. This is America, and anything could happen, though I pray it doesn't.

I don't like the direction in which this nation is pointed. However, I am praying that God and His supernatural; favor be around us until He takes us back home.

Until that day, people like us must remain strong in our faith, and committed to the Gospel message of Jesus and how it applies to our walk and testimony.

Pastor Paul:type:
Remove the Haze Ministries
Author of Prodigal Daze and
Thorn Daze

 

[canadyjd]

You mean Christains aren't to accept "world views" on questions of morality? :tonofbricks:

How else are we ever going to get that wonderful self righteous feeling if we refuse to accept "world views" on questions of morality?

The only wonderful feeling I am seeking has nothing to do with self righteousness. It is the wonderful feeling of having our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ say the words, "Well done, My good and faithful servent".


peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I do care that the it is probable that we could one day be hauled before an American tribunal and subjected to the torture some of us have backed. This is America, and anything could happen, though I pray it doesn't.

It is my concern as well that we, as Christians, are supporting the very policies that will one day be used to persecute and/or kill other Christians, including our children and grandchildren, or even ourselves.

I don't like the direction in which this nation is pointed. However, I am praying that God and His supernatural; favor be around us until He takes us back home.

Pastor Paul, we have read the end of the book. We know what is going to happen. The influence of anti-christ will spread throughout the world. America will not be spared.

All we can do is walk in a manner worthy of our calling. Seek the things above where our heavenly Father is, and not the things below (including the country) where sin and death rule.

Until that day, people like us must remain strong in our faith, and committed to the Gospel message of Jesus and how it applies to our walk and testimony.

Agreed! I just pray you will see that commitment, that walk, includes our views on torturing people. It is contrary to the teachings of our Lord Jesus. We cannot return evil for evil. We cannot condone evil (support torture) so that good will come to us (keep us safe).

peace to youraying:

 

[poncho]

The only wonderful feeling I am seeking has nothing to do with self righteousness. It is the wonderful feeling of having our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ say the words, "Well done, My good and faithful servent".


peace to youraying:

I understand. I was thinking of other Christians who I've met throughout the years who act as if their salvation makes them above others. Like okay I'm saved and you're still a rotten sinner do as I say now or you'll burn. I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone here on BB.

Sorry if it seemed that way.