stilllearning
Active Member
How can a person be a sinner, and never have sinned?
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A Riddle
- Thread starter stilllearning
- Start date
I agree with both posts given in answer to your question.stilllearning said:
One thing some people need to remember is that the term 'sinner' is not only a reference to one who has done something but is also a reference to the state of being to which a person is.
Example: We (in Christ) are called righteous, not because everything we do is righteous nor even that we have done one thing that is righteous but because it is our very nature or state of being in Christ before God.
We are called righteous before we ever do (as in works) anything good or right in the sight of God. Why? Becuase it is refering to our nature from which proceeds our actions. It is the same with be called a sinner. We are a sinner because it is our very nature, also known as the sin nature, and thus from this nature proceeds our works and vise-versa with righteousness. Therefore we are a sinner from birth not because we have sinned but because we can be nothing more from birth until God change us.
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stilllearning
Active Member
Hi Allan
Very well put.
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The way that I would put it is:
We are all born sinners, but the only ones of us that have not sinned, are those who “don’t know what sin is”.
i.e. Children, who have not reached the age of accountability yet.
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Kind of like Adam and Eve, before eating of the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil”.
They were running around naked, and it didn’t bother them a bit.
(Just like some young children in the summer, who will run through the sprinkler in the yard naked, and not be ashamed at all.)
-They don’t know that they are naked!-
Very well put.
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The way that I would put it is:
We are all born sinners, but the only ones of us that have not sinned, are those who “don’t know what sin is”.
i.e. Children, who have not reached the age of accountability yet.
--------------------------------------------------
Kind of like Adam and Eve, before eating of the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil”.
They were running around naked, and it didn’t bother them a bit.
(Just like some young children in the summer, who will run through the sprinkler in the yard naked, and not be ashamed at all.)
-They don’t know that they are naked!-
Age of accountability????
Read this little news item:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...re-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html
Cheers,
Jim
Read this little news item:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...re-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html
Cheers,
Jim
stilllearning
Active Member
Hi Jim1999
Interesting article, and I agree. (Children are born “good”!)
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But as soon as they “learn” what sin is, they will try it out.
(And then, they are no longer “good”.)
Interesting article, and I agree. (Children are born “good”!)
And they are good, because they don’t know anything about sin.
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But as soon as they “learn” what sin is, they will try it out.
(And then, they are no longer “good”.)
stilllearning said:
The article didn't say that children are born good.But even if Dr.Barrett of the Centre for Anthropology and Mind would make that claim -- it has no force of truth.Believe the Scripture -- not the word of non-Christian people.Read the passages I gave you earlier.Do you believe that babies are under the wrath of God?Or do you think that they are 1)righteous 2)neutral 3) some other category wherein they don't need a Savior because they don't need to be saved.
They are not good in the first place, if you go by the Word of God.
Tom Butler
New Member
I've often thought that the sinful nature of children is on display in our church's nursery.stilllearning said:
"Mine!"
"I want it!!!"
They are acting naturally, just like all toddlers.
My very first funeral was the death of an infant. I wrestled with this Age of accountability thing and could find it nowhere in scripture.
I finally rested with David's statement that he would see his child in heaven. I left some hope in my vagories, and I have done the same throughout my ministry. I don't know! I really don't know! I can only hope.
Cheers,
Jim
I finally rested with David's statement that he would see his child in heaven. I left some hope in my vagories, and I have done the same throughout my ministry. I don't know! I really don't know! I can only hope.
Cheers,
Jim
windcatcher
New Member
The Bible teaches that the law is the instructor by which we know we are sinners. It teaches that those who know no law still have the sense of distinguishing some things are right and somethings are wrong... as in a man understands his knowledge of possessions that what he owns or makes is his until such time as he trades it with another..... in which case of ownership.... if he takes something which doesn't belong to him or someone takes from him a possession without his agreement.... the law of injustice is already written within his heart to which he is accountable to obeying and will serve to judge him if it brings him not to repentance if he has stolen or it will drive him with desire for retribution for a person who violates his ownership. Hence, experience in life brings a degree of understanding some things are right and some things are wrong without the formality of being taught.... and that becomes a law to the ignorant but 'natural man' ..... and that 'law' demands a penalty or making 'right' to return parties which offend to rightful relationship again. Jesus said he came not to do away with the law but to fullfill it. Law requires obediance or penalties for disobediance: There is no 'middle ground'. Breaking one point of the law makes one 'lawless' no matter how well the rest of the law was kept.....in God's sight. Jesus paid all the penalty which God demanded for the remission of our sin by his substitutionary death on the cross..... the wages of sin is death, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin; The human priesthood carried out repetitive animal sacrifices for the sins of the people... but the blood of animals was imperfect and a foreshadow of what God had planned to become the Savior for his people and for all humankind who would receive him.
The child sins because he is a sinner: He is selfish, rebellious, filled with his own desires and demands for attention, and covetous..... not mindful if another child he hits is hurt or that his bite is wrong but relishes in the response of the victim: However, young children may not understand the law...... even for a while though they are taught 'rules' to go by. Their way of thinking may not yet be mature to distinguish the difference between deliberately lying vs telling you a story the way they fantasized it to be or wished it to be. Thus, in their lack of understanding, an innocence is presumed upon them, not because they were in perfect obediance, but that they neither had understanding of sin nor its consequences......knowledge that they trespassed and understanding that their trespass was unacceptible. this is 'accountability.... and the question then becomes 'accountable to whom?' Speaking to this end, after healing the blind man, blind from birth, Jesus made a rebuke to the religious leaders of his day.... that if they were blind then they would be without sin.... but since they say that they 'see' .......
James, the brother of Jesus, speaks beautifully, in his epistle, how we are like children.... but if we sin..... we confess and repent. Jesus seemed to be delivering a message by example beyond that of the master being servant of all.....when he came to Peter to wash his feet... and Peter at first refused... but the Lord rebuked.... and Peter repented saying not his feet only but wash all.... and the Lord reminded him.... that 'washing' applied to that which was dirty....i.e. the dusty feet in the sandals of that day which, though their bodies were clean, still their feet had become dirty while walking in the streets to the passover feast. So it is with the Christian life, we must faithfully be refreshed in the Word and apply it to the perfecting of our walk in Christ Jesus so that we turn from that which is unholy and un-Christ like, or repent from those areas of sin in our lives.
So though the saved person is counted as 'righteous' because the Lamb of God paid the penalty, and the Son of God became our righteousness.... still we do sin, though we desire not too..... and this daily cleansing of repentance, renews and restores the fellowship upon which we are dependant in our faith. He completed his work on the cross. But our walk of faith, or result of our faith which is action, continues until we either die or are transformed..... Til that moment, we are in the process of being transformed, putting off the old man and putting on the new, dying to ourselves daily, the process of santification.
So then, in answering the riddle... I would think the sinner sins because he is already a sinner. A sinner gets saved because he understands that he has sinned and that sin has consequences which he cannot pay nor live.... without accepting that God who holds him accountable is also his salvation in whom he must depend. So then a sinner becomes 'saved' having passed from the verdict of his sin unto death, through the substitutionary priceless death of Jesus, which miraculously presents him to the Father of Glory as spotless: He then, whos' own self-righteousness was as filthy rags, is now counted as 'righteous' in Jesus Christ: Clothed in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, he is no longer in bondage to be the servant or suffer the penalty of sin.... but he still might sin.... and when he does, he is admonished to confess and repent and not become bound thereby, so that he remains in right fellowship with God without self-condemnation separating him from the love of God.
The child sins because he is a sinner: He is selfish, rebellious, filled with his own desires and demands for attention, and covetous..... not mindful if another child he hits is hurt or that his bite is wrong but relishes in the response of the victim: However, young children may not understand the law...... even for a while though they are taught 'rules' to go by. Their way of thinking may not yet be mature to distinguish the difference between deliberately lying vs telling you a story the way they fantasized it to be or wished it to be. Thus, in their lack of understanding, an innocence is presumed upon them, not because they were in perfect obediance, but that they neither had understanding of sin nor its consequences......knowledge that they trespassed and understanding that their trespass was unacceptible. this is 'accountability.... and the question then becomes 'accountable to whom?' Speaking to this end, after healing the blind man, blind from birth, Jesus made a rebuke to the religious leaders of his day.... that if they were blind then they would be without sin.... but since they say that they 'see' .......
James, the brother of Jesus, speaks beautifully, in his epistle, how we are like children.... but if we sin..... we confess and repent. Jesus seemed to be delivering a message by example beyond that of the master being servant of all.....when he came to Peter to wash his feet... and Peter at first refused... but the Lord rebuked.... and Peter repented saying not his feet only but wash all.... and the Lord reminded him.... that 'washing' applied to that which was dirty....i.e. the dusty feet in the sandals of that day which, though their bodies were clean, still their feet had become dirty while walking in the streets to the passover feast. So it is with the Christian life, we must faithfully be refreshed in the Word and apply it to the perfecting of our walk in Christ Jesus so that we turn from that which is unholy and un-Christ like, or repent from those areas of sin in our lives.
So though the saved person is counted as 'righteous' because the Lamb of God paid the penalty, and the Son of God became our righteousness.... still we do sin, though we desire not too..... and this daily cleansing of repentance, renews and restores the fellowship upon which we are dependant in our faith. He completed his work on the cross. But our walk of faith, or result of our faith which is action, continues until we either die or are transformed..... Til that moment, we are in the process of being transformed, putting off the old man and putting on the new, dying to ourselves daily, the process of santification.
So then, in answering the riddle... I would think the sinner sins because he is already a sinner. A sinner gets saved because he understands that he has sinned and that sin has consequences which he cannot pay nor live.... without accepting that God who holds him accountable is also his salvation in whom he must depend. So then a sinner becomes 'saved' having passed from the verdict of his sin unto death, through the substitutionary priceless death of Jesus, which miraculously presents him to the Father of Glory as spotless: He then, whos' own self-righteousness was as filthy rags, is now counted as 'righteous' in Jesus Christ: Clothed in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, he is no longer in bondage to be the servant or suffer the penalty of sin.... but he still might sin.... and when he does, he is admonished to confess and repent and not become bound thereby, so that he remains in right fellowship with God without self-condemnation separating him from the love of God.
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