A salvation question....

I agree with the points above regarding our election from before birth, yet having a specific point at which we are regenerated. This is the Biblical doctrine of grace.

But the problem with Covenant Theology is that is does not recognize some of the crucial differences between the Old national covenant with Israel, and the New Covenant.

Under the Old covenant, a person entered into a covenant with God at his physical birth--i.e. to be Jewish was to be a part of the Old covenant--hence, circumcision(the sign) was done soon after birth. But that Old Covenant relationship did not determine a person's salvation. Most O.T. Jews were not believers--I say this as a "fruit inspector" reading accounts of their lives.

But all members of the New Covenant are believers (see Jer 31:34, Mat. 26:28). They enter into this covenant, not by their physical birth, but by their spiritual birth. Hence baptism (the symbol) is properly done after the new birth (regeneration) has taken place.

Presbyterians (and other Reformed groups)generally do not recognize this fundamental difference between the two covenants and so equate circumcision with baptism, so baptizing soon after physical birth instead of after spiritual birth.

I make these observations as a former dispensationalist and as a former Reformed Baptist. It's really not about eschatology.

A believer in the better covenant,

Tim

 

Daniel,

While I sometimes benefit from what you say, I seldom benefit from the way you say it. I know that you are a student in Seminary, perhaps that is why so many of your responses have tend to be spoken with a condescending attitude. For instance you say that I should, "enjoy thinking I have sovereignty over God." Now you may be smart, and I emphasize may, but you do not know what my thinking processes are. You dismiss anyone who disagrees with your calvinist view as though we are all ignorant or unable to come up to your level of knowledge. You surely must know that many Seminary professors do not hold to the calvinistic position.

One more thing. I would assume that you are in Seminary to train to be a pastor. Along with the knowledge you are gaining, learn to have a pastor's heart. Love people and care for their needs as well as instruct them in theology.

 

Terry, I thought your post was a joke at first. I went back and read your orignal post. Consider your tactful statements:

1. I am not rational.

2. I believe in evil doctrine.

3. I made it up.

I am not sure your occupation, but if that is the way communication is to happen, you really have zero right to ever criticize my posts.

It is those points that I disagreed with.

Btw, four of my favorite preachers are prescient calvinists (foreknowledge means to know before and is not causitive).

 

Daniel,

Perhaps much of this debate centers on a misunderstanding of definitions. I readily admit that I do not have a good understanding of the complete doctrine of calvinism. I would very much like for you to explain the finer points of this doctrine. For example, what is the difference between calvinism and hyper-calvinism? And, do the calvinist actually believe that some people have been created with the express purpose of going to hell?

I am opposed to what I understand calvinism to be, but I admit that there are many things I do not understand.

 

Dear Molly,

As I see it...

Salvation and our family:

Acts 16: 30 ... Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

So, this man and his family were all saved on the same day.
Looking at another Scripture we see the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man working together:

Matthew 11:
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In verse 27 we see that the revelation of the salvation of God comes only to those whom the Son chooses.

Yet in verses 28-30 the Son gives an open ended invitation to those who have a need.

Choice and our awareness of that need...
Acts 8:
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God .
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Though salvation is of the Lord, the Lord has worked this ability of His children to choose Him into his Sovereign plan of election which is clearly shown in the Scripture.

On our part, baptism can come only after a confession of faith in Christ.

Many Baptist churches have a "dedication" of new-borns, where the parents come forth and "dedicate" their child to the Lord promising to raise the child in "the fear and admonition of the Lord".
This to me is a Scriptural alternative to the error of infant baptism.

To deny children communion will stimulate their ability to choose.
One day they will ask "why aren't we allowed to take the Lord's Supper?" thereby demonstrating their ego/self-awareness and desire to be a part of the Church.
It is a small step then to the awareness of personal sin and the need of the Savior.

You know the rest of the story.

HankD

 

OK

 

Terry if you are indeed desiring to learn the fine points of calvinism I suggest you look at the Cal/arm forum. I am glad that Daniel has refrained from answering your post. The Webmaster feels it best to discuss certain issues in their specific forum if one applies and in this case it does.
Murph

 

This is true primarily because the subject of salvation is totally irrelevant to fundamentalists apart from knowing that Christ is the one who saves. Just make sure you get that down.

Leave the calvinism to the ivory tower theologians and arminianism to the soulwinners.

Btw, make sure you don't mention any of the following either:

General discussion among fundamentalists
Theology among fundamentalists
Denominations among fundamentalists
Versions among fundamentalists
Pastoral Ministries among fundamentalists

Since none of those are relevant to fundamentalism, it is best to only post in one place (even though your audience might be more broad than fundamentalists).

 

Dr. Bob, I am glad you saw the purposeful absurditiy in my post. It is funny how if a topic is supposed to just be for fundamentalists, it still will get moved to the other forums. Maybe that was the absurd part.

 

I agree with Daniel David. There doesn't seem to be a discernable criteria for which topics are moved or closed and which ones stay. I thought this forum was established so that fundamentalists could discuss basically any issue without having to argue biblical authority and other basics.

Calvinism vs. Arminianism is appears to be a large and growing controversy within fundamentalism. I think we should be able to discuss it without the chatter of liberals, primatives, pentacostals, etc. that we get in the other forum.

 

xxxxxxx

 

Molly,

====================================
I'm hoping some of you can help us with this....How do you relate these things in the bible?

Covenant theology(we believe this is accurate to scripture)
Election(which we agree with this doctrine!)
=====================================

About your questions. I have found a book that would be very helpful with your questions. Its answers both questions. The book is: Children of the Promise by Robert R.Booth and is published by P&R.

P&R web site: http://www.prpbooks.com/

The title of this book comes from Act 2:39 where Peter is talking about Salvation. I like the last phase of this verse, ".....As many as God will call"

The author was a Baptist minister and explains the differences between Baptist and Reformed thinking about Covenant theology.

As far as Election, the bible is full of statements about election: Roman 9 is very difficult to argue against, so is Eph 1:3-6.

I have never found a single verse stating we have free will. I have found 2 that teach that we donot have free will: John 1:12-13 and Roman 9.

Read the book it only 180 pages long.

 

Molly the confusion comes from the idea that you are unconditionally Elect. These other people are wrong. The Bible doesn't teach that. It does teach Election but not as you are viewing it. Thus the worry. Look at this:

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Did you notice the "Requirement" for election there Molly. The Bible says, "as he hath chosen us IN HIM"... Notice this same chapter goes on to say...Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

There it is again, "gather together in one all things IN CHRIST".

Look also at, Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

All that too say this. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. They hear the word, the gospel of your salvation, and believe and ask Christ to save them and God seals them with the Holy Spirit.

The ONLY Elect are those that are IN HIM. Those verses show that the Election is according to one thing. If you are IN CHRIST, He has Elected you to be predestinated to Heaven and to Be translated into the Image of His Son. Everyone that gets saved is in Christ.

Look again, 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

There it is. It was God's foreknowledge that you would OBEY...See that...Obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ? There is your conditional salvation. That you get IN CHRIST...and God says you are predestined to Heaven. The Only way to get into Christ is by getting saved...Rom. 10:9-10

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

But as I said before this is conditioned on the fact that you get in Christ. God looked ahead in the future and said that "WHEN" you accept Christ as Saviour, you are Predestinated to go to Heaven. If you don't get into Christ though. You are Predestinated to hell.

Feel free to email with any questions. *** remarks against calvinism removed***
Truth

[ April 29, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

Please remember that the board has a special forum for the cal/arm debate.
Murph