A Sample of The Strange Teachings of Rick Warren

[D28guy]

nunatak,

"I don't think I missed your point. You clearly do not line up with any grouping of believers in the traditional sense. I guess most Americans would agree with you."

Ha ha! Oh, I dont think so. :laugh: Most average Americans would consder me to be MUCH too strong with my faith. ("He's a Jesus freak"!)

"The largest growing religious affiliation is "nothing in particular."

I always, when forced to categorize myself, will say "evangelical". More than anything else, I am an evangelical with pentecostal leanings.

"While that is not what you are saying, you also don't line up with any grouping either. Again, sounds confused."

Its not confused at all. You...like most people...seem to be obsessed to some degree with the idea everyone must be a "this" or a "that". A Baptist. An Assembly of God. A Church of Christ. A Methodist, etc etc.

None of those terms are scriptural. I prefer to use scriptural terms. When people ask me what I "am", I say things like "I'm a Christian". "I'm a child of God". "I'm a born again person. "I'm a believer", etc.

I am currently plugged in to a pentecostal fellowship. I am also friends of some folks who attend a Baptist church, and I sit in on many of their meetings. Before my current fellowship, it was a Charismatic Church. Before that it was a Southern Baptist Church. Before that it was a house church that met on thursday night weekly. Before that a Cambellite church.

I had enriching and awesome worship and fellowship at all of those places. All of them were made up of believers. Christians. Children of God. We all didnt agree on every "jot and tittle", of doctrine, but we never will in this life.

"However, having come out of a major pentecostal denomination that espouses false doctrine, I am very sensitive to this."

I can understand that.

"I would never call myself bapticostal."

Thats OK.

"I am still learning what I should call myself,..."

How but Christian? Or Child of God? Or one who is born again? Or a "disciple". How bout "saint". You become all of those things the instant you were born again.

....but it will be something that I can prove with a statement of beliefs."

Nothing wrong with statements of belief, but dont let them dictate to you what you must believe. Thats no different than the Catholics who are in bondage to the dictates and suppression of their hierarchy...and in that particular case the people are in bondage to a group teaching paganism and heresy all over the place.

But regarding "proof"...the scriptures say nothing about a statement of beliefs being the "proof". They tell us that the "proof" that someone is born again is a changed life...

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, and behold, all things have become new.

God bless you,

Mike

 

[nunatak]

I always, when forced to categorize myself, will say "evangelical". More than anything else, I am an evangelical with pentecostal leanings.

I get pentecostal. What do you mean by evangelical?

I prefer to use scriptural terms. When people ask me what I "am", I say things like "I'm a Christian". "I'm a child of God". "I'm a born again person. "I'm a believer", etc.

I hear you, but times have changed since when Scripture was written, when just saying you are a christian served to explain you put your faith in Christ alone. There are groups who claim to be christian, and yet teach heresy.

Or one who is born again? Or a "disciple". How bout "saint". You become all of those things the instant you were born again.

Yes, I agree implicitly. Allow me to state that not all groups mean the same thing by "born again."

Nothing wrong with statements of belief, but dont let them dictate to you what you must believe. Thats no different than the Catholics who are in bondage to the dictates and suppression of their hierarchy...and in that particular case the people are in bondage to a group teaching paganism and heresy all over the place.

But regarding "proof"...the scriptures say nothing about a statement of beliefs being the "proof". They tell us that the "proof" that someone is born again is a changed life...

Surely there must be a statement of beliefs, or a catechism, that I can use to show what I believe concerning the fundamental doctrines of Scripture?

 

[D28guy]

RevMitchell,

"They heretically believe the acts passage refers to eternal salvation and the romans passage refers to Millenial salvation."

Good grief. Thats one of the weirder things I've come across in a looooong time.

Mike

 

[Revmitchell]

RevMitchell,



Good grief. Thats one of the weirder things I've come across in a looooong time.

Mike

His site is here



If you want to know more about it go here

 

[D28guy]

Nunatak,

"Surely there must be a statement of beliefs, or a catechism, that I can use to show what I believe concerning the fundamental doctrines of Scripture?"

There is.

(((The scriptures!)))

Justification through faith alone in Christ alone is found in the scriptures.

The principle of turning to the scriptures alone as our authority is found in the sciptures.

The Diety of the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all taught in the scriptures.

The "individual persons yet one God" truth is taught in the scriptures.

The reality of the new birth, as well as the principle of new life is taught in the scriptures.

Water baptism is taught in the scriptures.

The Lords supper memorial is taught in the scriptures.

On and on it goes.

Why do you need a statement of beliefs if you have a copy of the scriptures?

Mike

 

[Revmitchell]

Nunatak,



There is.

(((The scriptures!)))

Justification through faith alone in Christ alone is found in the scriptures.

The principle of turning to the scriptures alone as our authority is found in the sciptures.

The Diety of the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all taught in the scriptures.

The "individual persons yet one God" truth is taught in the scriptures.

The reality of the new birth, as well as the principle of new life is taught in the scriptures.

Water baptism is taught in the scriptures.

The Lords supper memorial is taught in the scriptures.

On and on it goes.

Why do you need a statement of beliefs if you have a copy of the scriptures?

Mike

SOF are typically used to indicate particular interpretations. They most certainly reveal heresy and erroneous beliefs. Such should be obvious.

 

[D28guy]

RevMitchell,

"SOF are typically used to indicate particular interpretations. They most certainly reveal heresy and erroneous beliefs. Such should be obvious."

I know. As I've said earlier on this thread, there is nothing wrong with statements of faith. There are times when a short, clear synopsis of what a group holds to comes in handy. My point wasnt to say they should be avoided.

But the poster seemed to be indicating...maybe I misunderstood...with this statement...

"Surely there must be a statement of beliefs, or a catechism, that I can use to show what I believe concerning the fundamental doctrines of Scripture?"

....that we just HAVE TO HAVE one of those statements of belief, from some particular demonination, as if someone (like me :wavey: ) couldnt get by without one.

All I was doing is putting them in the proper perspective.

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Rev Mitchell,

Thanks for the link regarding the ME group.

I completly disagree with their view of those to passages from earlier being 2 different salvations.

But while we are on the subject, let me just say this.

Thats actually the 1st time I have had an opportunity to dig into their beliefs in depth. I knew there were some threads a while back where those views were being represented, but I didnt post much on them, if at all. Maybe 2 or 3 posts. I just neved got deep into the discussion, and I moved back to other threads that I was very much involved with.

So anyway, having read the entire doctrine and belief page, I have to say that I think the Council of this website that pinned the "damndable heresy" sign on the main page GREATLY overreacted. Stunningly so.

Unless there is some other stuff that is exceedingly problematic, I see no reason to condemn them in such a way.

I was pretty much in agreement with with everything on that statement of beliefs, except the part about some being excluded from the 1000 year millenial period, but included in heaven for eternity.

I dont agree with that, but to me that is clearly a "let your brother be fully persuaded in his own mind" issue. What brothers and sisters believe about end time events is usually never considered to be point of condemnation anywhere, in my experience...until now.

The Catholics who post on here are representing views that are HUGELY more problematic than this peculiar ME belief...yet the Catholics post freely. The ME folks be able to should post freely, imo.

They believe in justification through faith alone, sola scriptura, the triune nature of God, the depravity of sinful man, Christs atonement on our behalf, creation over evolution, etc etc. On and on and on it goes, fine solid teaching straight up and down the line...until the part about end time events, but there was nothing HERETICAL in the least in that part, in my opinion...just different than what most believe. They arent even in the same universe as the Mormons, Scientoligists, JW's, Catholics, Mary Baker Eddy'd group, etc.

Unless there is much more, that is not an the "What we believe" page, I think its quite harsh to condemn then in such a way, and silence them.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev Mitchell,

Thanks for the link regarding the ME group.

I completly disagree with their view of those to passages from earlier being 2 different salvations.

But while we are on the subject, let me just say this.

Thats actually the 1st time I have had an opportunity to dig into their beliefs in depth. I knew there were some threads a while back where those views were being represented, but I didnt post much on them, if at all. Maybe 2 or 3 posts. I just neved got deep into the discussion, and I moved back to other threads that I was very much involved with.

So anyway, having read the entire doctrine and belief page, I have to say that I think the Council of this website that pinned the "damndable heresy" sign on the main page GREATLY overreacted. Stunningly so.

Unless there is some other stuff that is exceedingly problematic, I see no reason to condemn them in such a way.

I was pretty much in agreement with with everything on that statement of beliefs, except the part about some being excluded from the 1000 year millenial period, but included in heaven for eternity.

I dont agree with that, but to me that is clearly a "let your brother be fully persuaded in his own mind" issue. What brothers and sisters believe about end time events is usually never considered to be point of condemnation anywhere, in my experience...until now.

The Catholics who post on here are representing views that are HUGELY more problematic than this peculiar ME belief...yet the Catholics post freely. The ME folks be able to should post freely, imo.

They believe in justification through faith alone, sola scriptura, the triune nature of God, the depravity of sinful man, Christs atonement on our behalf, creation over evolution, etc etc. On and on and on it goes, fine solid teaching straight up and down the line...until the part about end time events, but there was nothing HERETICAL in the least in that part, in my opinion...just different than what most believe. They arent even in the same universe as the Mormons, Scientoligists, JW's, Catholics, Mary Baker Eddy'd group, etc.

Unless there is much more, that is not an the "What we believe" page, I think its quite harsh to condemn then in such a way, and silence them.

Grace and peace,

Mike

I disagree. Preaching to salvations is another gospel. Also every time Christ speaks of the Kingdom in the gospels they interpret that to be talking about the Millenium. For example John 3 is not believed to be addressing eternal life. It is believed by Faust, Chitwood and some in the Grace Evangelical Society to be speaking to the millenium. Also it is quite problematic to say that a regenerate person must "pay" for their sin of unfaithfulness. This ideology says that if someone once believed in Christ but then stopped they will still be regenerate but must suffer in purgatory at best and hell at worst. It varies from person to person. It is truly another gospel.

 

[gb93433]

His site is here

How can that website have periodicals dated from[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]July, 2007 through December, 2008[/FONT][FONT=&quot]?[/FONT]

 

[D28guy]

RevMitcell,

"Preaching two salvations is another gospel."

I dont see them as actually teaching 2 salvations. They teach that ALL who have placed their faith in Christ will be in heaven for eternity. They just believe that *some* will not join the others until after the millinial reign period. I dont agree with that, but they do teach that EVERYONE will ultimetly be together in heaven for eternity

"Also every time Christ speaks of the Kingdom in the gospels they interpret that to be talking about the Millenium. For example John 3 is not believed to be addressing eternal life."

I dont see how they get that out of John 3.

"It is believed by Faust, Chitwood and some in the Grace Evangelical Society to be speaking to the millenium. Also it is quite problematic to say that a regenerate person must "pay" for their sin of unfaithfulness."

I agree with you on that. Christ has "payed" for our unfaithfullness. We experience sorrow, and sometimes Gods chastisement, for our unfaithfulness.

"This ideology says that if someone once believed in Christ but then stopped they will still be regenerate but must suffer in purgatory at best and hell at worst."

I was thinking the same thing! I was raised Catholic and I have thought to myself a few times when reading their material...."that sounds like their version of purgatory."

"It varies from person to person. It is truly another gospel."

Maybe you're right...I'm still not than familiar with them...but right now I cant go that far. I'm just not comfortable lumping them in with the JW's, Mormons, Catholics, Mary Baker Eddy, etc etc.

They seem to be as orthodox as can be with 99% of what they teach...from what I can tell so far....with the only exception being a unique view of end time events. And again, end time events have ALWAYS been a source of much disagreement with multiple views of how things are played out, and end time events have always been controversial.

And again....they believe that ULTIMETLY all will be with Christ for eternity in heaven.

There are LOTS of ultra legalistc christians, some of whom post on this board, who believe that "unfaithfullness" proves that you never were a true believer, and unless you get good an "Holy", you will burn in hell for eternity.

To me, that is MUCH more problematic than what these Millenium Exclusion folks are propagating.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Revmitchell]

How can that website have periodicals dated from[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]July, 2007 through December, 2008[/FONT][FONT=&quot]?[/FONT]

I do not know what he does or how he does anything.

 

[Revmitchell]

RevMitcell,



I dont see them as actually teaching 2 salvations. They teach that ALL who have placed their faith in Christ will be in heaven for eternity. They just believe that *some* will not join the others until after the millinial reign period. I dont agree with that, but they do teach that EVERYONE will ultimetly be together in heaven for eternity

When you talk with them they will refer to the salvation spoken of in Romans 10:9,10 as being different than say Acts 16. That certainly is two salvations.

Also in John 3 they espouse that being born again refers to the Millenium. In fact they intimate that Christ did not come to preach eternal salvation but came to preach the millenial Kingdom. Again, another gospel.

Mormons believe we wil be together for eternity just on different levels of heaven. So I wouldnt use that as a litmus test to validity or a legitimate Christian walk. But do not take my word for it check it out for yourself. Joey Faust is pastor at Kingdom Baptist
Church. I believe you can here mp3's on his site. The link I gave you earlier is Chitwoods garbage. He has plenty of stuff there.

 

[D28guy]

RevMitchell,

"When you talk with them they will refer to the salvation spoken of in Romans 10:9,10 as being different than say Acts 16. That certainly is two salvations.

Also in John 3 they espouse that being born again refers to the Millenium. In fact they intimate that Christ did not come to preach eternal salvation but came to preach the millenial Kingdom. Again, another gospel.

Mormons believe we wil be together for eternity just on different levels of heaven. So I wouldnt use that as a litmus test to validity or a legitimate Christian walk. But do not take my word for it check it out for yourself. Joey Faust is pastor at Kingdom Baptist
Church. I believe you can here mp3's on his site. The link I gave you earlier is Chitwoods garbage. He has plenty of stuff there."

Well, regarding a litmus test, ultimetly it boils down to this. I certainly dont agree with every "jot and tittle" that they teach, but when I read this on their site....

GOD

1. We believe that God is specifically defined only in the Bible (2 Sam. 7:22; Isa. 44:6).

2. We believe that there is only one intelligent, uncaused, self-existent, and invisible God (not two or three) who is both transcendent and immanent, and both infinite and personal. He is not a force, energy, or power. He is the supreme and sovereign being over the entire universe (Psa. 103:19; Isa. 44:8; 1 Tim 1:17).

3. We believe that the Godhead is triune, meaning that God is one in His essence or being and three in person: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (1 John 5:7). All three are called God (1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Tim. 3:16; Acts 5:3-4). Each person of the Godhead is equally eternal with all knowledge, all power, and is everywhere present. We, without defense, accept that this is a difficult doctrine to fully understand and explain, although it is not against reason, nor is it contradictory (Ps. 92:5-6; Rom. 11:33).

4. We believe that all gods of other religions are false and man-made and not at all equally true with the God of the Bible (Ps. 96:5; Isa. 45:21; Acts 19:26; 1 Cor.10:20). We reject all worldviews of pantheism, animism, pluralism, deism, atheism, and polytheism.

JESUS

1. We believe that Jesus Christ is true God and true man; He is fully divine and also fully human (Jn. 1:14; 1 Tim. 3:16). He pre-existed eternally with the Father (Jn. 1:1; 8:58), was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mt. 1:18), born of the virgin Mary (Mt. 1:23), lived a perfect life (1 Pet. 2:22), and died a substitutionary death for the sins of mankind (Jn. 1:29).

2. We believe that He arose bodily from the grave (1 Cor. 15:4) and ascended to heaven (Lk. 24:50; Acts 1:11) where He is presently operating as the High Priest, Mediator, and Advocate around His shed blood for His people (Heb. 2:17; 4:14; 9:11-15; 1 Jn. 2:1-2). We also believe that He will return personally and bodily as King of Kings and Lord of Lords to the earth at the end of this age (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 19:11).

3. We believe that Jesus Christ is the world’s only Savior and that He is the Lord of all (Jn. 4:42; Phil. 2:9-11).

THE HOLY SPIRIT

1. We believe that the Holy Spirit is God, the third person of the triune Godhead. He is not a force, fluid, or an influence. The person of the Holy Spirit works in the lives of God’s people today indirectly by the means of the Word of God, which He inspired (Eph. 6:17; 2 Pet. 1:21).

2. He is present in the world to make men aware of their need for Jesus Christ unto salvation and to also procure a bride for the King of kings. He also lives in every Christian from the moment of salvation. He provides the Christian with power for living, understanding of spiritual truth, and guidance in doing what is right. He gives every believer a spiritual gift when they are saved. As Christians, we seek to live under His control daily (2 Corinthians 3:17; John 16:7-13, 14:16-17; Acts 1:8; 1 Corin-thians 2:12, 3:16; Ephesians 1:13; Galatians 5:25; Ephesians 5:18).

SALVATION

1. We believe that the only requirement to be saved from never ending judgment in the lake of fire is to believe one time on the finished work and death of Jesus Christ on the cross for one’s own sins (Acts 16:30-31; 1 Cor. 15:3; Jn. 19:30).

2. We believe that a person can have absolute total assurance that he is saved by looking only to the objective evidence found in the Scripture that Christ died for his sins (1 Cor. 15:3).

3. We believe that no act of obedience or work of man, preceding or following the finished work salvation, such as water baptism, perseverance, commitment, turning from one's sins, or submission to the Lordship of Christ, is required to be a saved person or remain a saved person.

4. We believe in an absolute eternal security of all saved people (1 Cor. 3:15).

5. We believe that Jesus died for every man (Heb. 2:9; Jn. 1:29). Therefore, the finished work salvation message is open to everyone in the human race. Anyone is capable of understanding this message and, henceforth, is held responsible to either believe or not to believe (Acts 16:30-31).

6. We believe that since the death of Christ, salvation from eternity in the lake of fire is exclusively found in the name of the Jesus. We reject all forms of inclusivism in regards to salvation.

There is not one syllabul of that is problematic, or that I dont agree completly with. We do not find those beliefs fully presented in the doctrines of the JW's, Mormons, Eddyites, Catholicism, or any number of groups preaching a false gospel. Its very difficult for me to label the ME folks as "heretics", "cultists", or anything else of that nature.

Some Baptists have a saying that goes something like...

"On the essentials, unity. On the non-essentials...freedom".

I have always felt that was an excellant, and biblical, statement. It seems that maybe these folks are being given condemnation on the non-essentials, rather than freedom.

I still feel that I have to view them as brothers and sisters whom I disagree with in some areas.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

RevMitchell,

"But do not take my word for it check it out for yourself. Joey Faust is pastor at Kingdom Baptist
Church. I believe you can here mp3's on his site."

I dont know anything about all of this mp3 buisiness. I dont have an mp3 player and dont want one. I know nothing about "downloading" to one.

I'd like to check that stuff out, though. Is there some place where I can just click a link and hear it on "realplayer" or "Windows Media Player"?

Mike

 

[Bethelassoc]

RevMitchell,



I dont know anything about all of this mp3 buisiness. I dont have an mp3 player and dont want one. I know nothing about "downloading" to one.

I'd like to check that stuff out, though. Is there some place where I can just click a link and hear it on "realplayer" or "Windows Media Player"?

Mike

Mike,

An mp3 is an audio file that will play on your computer. It's a standard file nowadays. They may give you the option of streaming it (youtube style) or you may be able to download it. That's how I like to do my files on my website, that is, if you don't have dial up and don't have to wait an hour for a file to download.

David

 

[Revmitchell]

RevMitchell,



I dont know anything about all of this mp3 buisiness. I dont have an mp3 player and dont want one. I know nothing about "downloading" to one.

I'd like to check that stuff out, though. Is there some place where I can just click a link and hear it on "realplayer" or "Windows Media Player"?

Mike

If you have a computer, windows operating system and windows media player you can listen to mp3 files opn your computer. Windows media player plays mp3 file formats

 

[D28guy]

Rev Mitchell and Bethelassoc,

Oh, good. I can just click a link. THAT I can do! :laugh:

I'll check out Fausts teachings to get a feel for whats going on.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Mark-in-Tx]

Surely you see that some who would call themselves fundamentalist would have a problem listening to other viewpoints. I am guessing that within Jesus circle his disciples may have varried in their understandings. Paul and Peter were in dissagreement. But we come together as brothers and sisters who follow Jesus Christ. I think you have to read this quote in the context of the whole story. Rick Warren is actively trying to reach people for Christ for that he is to be commended. We don't all have to be the same to be washed by the blood of the lamb.

 

[Bible-boy]

nunatak,



Ha ha! Oh, I dont think so. :laugh: Most average Americans would consder me to be MUCH too strong with my faith. ("He's a Jesus freak"!)



I always, when forced to categorize myself, will say "evangelical". More than anything else, I am an evangelical with pentecostal leanings.



Its not confused at all. You...like most people...seem to be obsessed to some degree with the idea everyone must be a "this" or a "that". A Baptist. An Assembly of God. A Church of Christ. A Methodist, etc etc.

None of those terms are scriptural. I prefer to use scriptural terms. When people ask me what I "am", I say things like "I'm a Christian". "I'm a child of God". "I'm a born again person. "I'm a believer", etc.

I am currently plugged in to a pentecostal fellowship. I am also friends of some folks who attend a Baptist church, and I sit in on many of their meetings. Before my current fellowship, it was a Charismatic Church. Before that it was a Southern Baptist Church. Before that it was a house church that met on thursday night weekly. Before that a Cambellite church.

I had enriching and awesome worship and fellowship at all of those places. All of them were made up of believers. Christians. Children of God. We all didnt agree on every "jot and tittle", of doctrine, but we never will in this life.



I can understand that.



Thats OK.



How but Christian? Or Child of God? Or one who is born again? Or a "disciple". How bout "saint". You become all of those things the instant you were born again.



Nothing wrong with statements of belief, but dont let them dictate to you what you must believe. Thats no different than the Catholics who are in bondage to the dictates and suppression of their hierarchy...and in that particular case the people are in bondage to a group teaching paganism and heresy all over the place.

But regarding "proof"...the scriptures say nothing about a statement of beliefs being the "proof". They tell us that the "proof" that someone is born again is a changed life...





God bless you,

Mike

Hello Brother Mike,

Based on the information your posted above and that contained in your BB User Profile I'll have to ask you to please no longer post in the Baptist Only Section of the BB and restrict your posting to the sections that are open to "All Other Christians."