A Scripture question [particularly for Calvinists]

[37818]

I think you interpret this passage incorrectly. . . .

Now if we understand, "them" to have . . .

From the perspective of Christ's atonement being solely securing the salvation of His elect, that proposed understanding would be patently a wrong interpretation.

The purpose of this thread is to properply understand ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. . . ," being impossible. The premise being limited atonement is true.

 

[37818]

In Hebrews 6:6, why does ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," not disprove limited atonement? Having never been saved in the first place.

The purpose of this thread is to properply understand ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. . . ," being impossible. The premise being limited atonement is true.

 

[Alan Gross]

In Hebrews 6:6, why does ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," not disprove limited atonement? Having never been saved in the first place.

There is nothing in that verse about a human soul that has been 'Saved' and there never has been, and there never will be.

And no one has ever been able to Make God Say Anything that He Doesn't Say.

Never have.

Never will.
...

I believe The Bible if that is what you mean by, 'Calvinist'.

He taught that Adam fell.

The Bible Teaches a lot of things, too.

Including, that there is nothing in that Hebrews 6:6 verse about a human soul that has been 'Saved' and there never has been, and there never will be.

 

[Benjamin]

And ;you are a Calvinist?

No! I'm just laughing at the reply. Is that not allowed?

 

[Noah Hirsch]

In Hebrews 6:6, why does ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," not disprove limited atonement? Having never been saved in the first place.

I’m not sure what translation you are quoting, but here is several versions of the verse.

“If they fal away, should be renued againe by repentance: seeing they crucifie againe to themselues the Sonne of God, and make a mock of him.” (Hebrews 6:6 GEN)

“yf they faule shulde be renued agayne vnto repentaunce: for as moche as they have (as concerninge them selves) crucified the sonne of God a fresshe makynge a mocke of him.” (Hebrews 6:6 Tyndale NT)

“and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:6 ASV)

“and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing that they crucify for themselves the Son of God again, and put him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:6 WEB)

In Hebrews 6:6, why does ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," not disprove limited atonement? Having never been saved in the first place.

No version that I have seen says that they will fall away. Nonetheless, the reading of “and then fell away” still leaves us a question about the perseverance of all those who are saved. In my view the text means that it is impossible to be renewed to repentance while one crucifies to themselves the Son of God again. The text does not say, “and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing that they have crucified for themselves the Son of God” or “crucified for themselves the Son of God again,” but “and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing that they crucify for themselves the Son of God, and put him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:6 WEB)

In Hebrews 3:12 it does not say, “We will become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end” or “We are becoming partakers of Christ,” but “For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end.” (Hebrews 3:12 WEB)

This doctrine of limited atonement, however does not mean that Christ did not die for all men, but means the the atonement is limited in its application to the elect alone.

 

[Alan Gross]

This doctrine of limited atonement, however does not mean that Christ did not die for all men, but means the the atonement is limited in its application to the elect alone.

Jesus Christ Suffered for the sins of His people.

The rest will suffer, Eternally, in The Lake of Fire.
...

There is no idea about 'Jesus Suffered' and a sinner who dies lost suffers, for the same sins.

...
"all" is a word that is used, sometimes, in a sentence.

There is a significant emphasis in The Bible Teaching concerning the Gentiles being included among those who are Saved, as God's children, for example, and not The Jews, only.

Jesus Died for "all", in that sense.

Jesus Died for "all" men, not just The Jews.

...
Double-Jeopardy, or "The prosecution or punishment of a person twice for the same offence", etc., is not a Characteristic of The Eternal Plan of Salvation.

Jesus Gave His Life A Ransome, for many.

Limited Atonement is a Bible Doctrine.

"they shall call His Name, Jesus, for He Will Save His people from their sins".

Matthew 1:21.

Double Jeopardy | Definition of Double Jeopardy by Lexico

 

[37818]

I’m not sure what translation you are quoting, but here is several versions of the verse.

“If they fal away, should be renued againe by repentance: seeing they crucifie againe to themselues the Sonne of God, and make a mock of him.” (Hebrews 6:6 GEN)

“yf they faule shulde be renued agayne vnto repentaunce: for as moche as they have (as concerninge them selves) crucified the sonne of God a fresshe makynge a mocke of him.” (Hebrews 6:6 Tyndale NT)

“and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:6 ASV)

“and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing that they crucify for themselves the Son of God again, and put him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:6 WEB)



No version that I have seen says that they will fall away. Nonetheless, the reading of “and then fell away” still leaves us a question about the perseverance of all those who are saved. In my view the text means that it is impossible to be renewed to repentance while one crucifies to themselves the Son of God again. The text does not say, “and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing that they have crucified for themselves the Son of God” or “crucified for themselves the Son of God again,” but “and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing that they crucify for themselves the Son of God, and put him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:6 WEB)

In Hebrews 3:12 it does not say, “We will become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end” or “We are becoming partakers of Christ,” but “For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end.” (Hebrews 3:12 WEB)

This doctrine of limited atonement, however does not mean that Christ did not die for all men, but means the the atonement is limited in its application to the elect alone.

The "If" in the KJV translation in Hebrews 6:6 of the Greek conjunction for "and" I swapted out. ". . . And they shall fall away . . . ." ". . . και παραπεσοντας . . . ." Others instead of "if" add the word "then." και as "And then."

 

[MB]

Because that passage is referring to false converts. They have tasted of the good things of God by acting the part of a believer (wittingly or unwittingly) and benefited by being part of the gathering of believers.

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It also says they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.We can't partake of the Holy Ghost and not have Him dwelling in side. You are avoiding the complete passage. I've always been curious about how Calvinist interpret scripture. It seems you give a partial interpretation and for your own opinion ignoring the main points of the verse that conflict with your theology. IOW's you skip over what you disagree with.
MB

 

[37818]

It also says they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.We can't partake of the Holy Ghost and not have Him dwelling in side.

[Are you a Calvinist?] Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . . resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." John 16:8 , ". . . He will reprove the world of sin, . . ."

 

[MB]

[Are you a Calvinist?] Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . . resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." John 16:8 , ". . . He will reprove the world of sin, . . ."

No I'm not a Calvinist. Since you must know all answers tell me. How does one partake of the Holy Ghost with out Him indwelling the person doing the partaking.Are you suggesting we can have part of the Holy Spirit? If so I would have to disagree.
MB

 

[37818]

No I'm not a Calvinist. Since you must know all answers tell me. How does one partake of the Holy Ghost with out Him indwelling the person doing the partaking.Are you suggesting we can have part of the Holy Spirit? If so I would have to disagree.
MB

I am opinionated. That by no means I would know everything.

The Holy Spirit sanctifies men, if possible to cause them to repent, in my view. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 2:25; Hebrews 10:29.

[Are you a Calvinist?] Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . . resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." John 16:8 , ". . . He will reprove the world of sin, . . ."

I want to have clear understand on how 5 point Calvinist understand Hebrews 6:6. It seems John Owen did not deal with that reference Heb. vi. 6, in his book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

 

[MB]

I am opinionated. That by no means I would know everything.

The Holy Spirit sanctifies men, if possible to cause them to repent, in my view. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 2:25; Hebrews 10:29.
I want to have clear understand on how 5 point Calvinist understand Hebrews 6:6. It seems John Owen did not deal with that reference Heb. vi. 6, in his book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

Stop being hypocritical of me you know I'm not a Calvinist. Judging me to be what I m clearly not is just plain sinful. Next time you judge me take a long look at your self.You certainly are no better than anyone else here.
MB

 

[MB]

In Hebrews 6:6, why does ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," not disprove limited atonement? Having never been saved in the first place.

You want to know what this passage is saying back up and read it starting from Hebrews 1:1
MB

 

[1689Dave]

In Hebrews 6:6, why does ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," not disprove limited atonement? Having never been saved in the first place.

Hebrews 6 cannot be understood apart from Limited Atonement.

That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

But others who fall away, were not the elect. So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

 

[Yeshua1]

In Hebrews 6:6, why does ". . . And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame," not disprove limited atonement? Having never been saved in the first place.

Those are thoes who were merely professing Jesus saved them, and yet were still trusting in temple sacrifices and Judaism to save!

 

[37818]

Stop being hypocritical of me you know I'm not a Calvinist. Judging me to be what I m clearly not is just plain sinful. Next time you judge me take a long look at your self.You certainly are no better than anyone else here.
MB

I did make the request "Calvinist only." Now asking you that question, to you is an accustion? I would think you would be smart enough to understand why asked as I did. It would seem not, sense you accuse me as you did.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am opinionated. That by no means I would know everything.

The Holy Spirit sanctifies men, if possible to cause them to repent, in my view. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 2:25; Hebrews 10:29.
I want to have clear understand on how 5 point Calvinist understand Hebrews 6:6. It seems John Owen did not deal with that reference Heb. vi. 6, in his book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

the text is....if having fallen away....it is impossible to renew the reprobates...the contrast is found in verse 9

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

thorns and briers is used in the OT. to speak of apostates;

2 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.

2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.

5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

 

[37818]

Hebrews 6 cannot be understood apart from Limited Atonement.

That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

But others who fall away, were not the elect. So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

Ok. While I many not agree, I like this answer.

 

[37818]

....if having fallen away....

Could you give me that short list where and why that Greek conjunction καί should be translared "if" and not "and."

BTW, that whole list can be understood to be an impossible, the subject.

 

[JonC]

No! I'm just laughing at the reply. Is that not allowed?

Depends.....funny how?