A service for worship & nothing else?

[Luke2427]

I'll stick up for Luke here....While I don't think that there is a "Biblical Warrant" for devoting a "specific service" to "worship" every week (as a calendrical event per se.....I ostensibly agree. I don't think any gathering of the Church should intentionally exclude any of the other facets of our Commission...however, it stands to reason that in a service wherein there are presumed to be none but established (and subsequently presumed re-generate church-members) a passionate plea for the gospel in an Evangelistic fervour may be un-warranted....and a PARTICULAR focus on worship specifically is.

Unless I am mistaken...both in the Hebrew of the OT and the Greek of the NT the word translated for "worship" literally or at least conotatively means "To prostrate oneself before" or something very closely akin to that....While I love my "PETRA" <---best Rock Band ever Secular OR Christian in the History of the Universe...
I do agree that we are SADLY lacking in the average modern Baptist Church for truly "Christ-focused" worship with a Spirit of Awe and Reverence...and indeed, I suppose I would say...FEAR. We play a little fast and loose I think.

While we are all here and since my foot is already completely engulfed by my own mouth...I'm also a little tired of this: "The Bible only says 'sing a joyful noise' therefore no effort or work or attempt at quality is expected when we sing to the Almighty Creator of the Universe" nonsense.
Consider, then, choir, that we bring a SACRIFICE of PRAISE into the house of the Lord...not merely a "dress however you feel like/we practiced for a sum-total of 1.5 hours this week....whether we have a smidgen of talent or have worked sufficiently to even stay in tune...sing-away trash.... We wouldn't DARE...sing to the Queen of England the way we haphazardly slime away marginally in melodic form to the God of the Universe... We take license, folks, with our effort in worship the way we despise those who take license with sin. We will instantly and roundly condemn any who think that since we are all saved by "grace" that we should sin all the more that "grace may abound"...but we don't condemn our own sloth and laziness in worship....

We all know too well the verse which admonishes us to "approach BOLDLY the Throne of Grace"...but we have translated it into the modern Parlance of:

"Go ahead and always 'ditty-bop'- hands in pocket, chewing-gum.-whistling Elvis tunes every time you make free with approaching the God of Heaven and Earth who hath the power to destroy both body and soul in Hell". 'Cause he ain't nothin to be 'fraid of now that we're all "graced-up" and what-not...

For SHAME!!!! All of us!!! FOR SHAME!!....
We ditty-bop into every old Chuch service with a "whores fore-head"....we refuse to be ashamed.

I also think that God has inspired 100-some-odd songs in a Divine hymnbook (sometimes called Psalms) which are ostensibly ignored by his Church.....

Style isn't the sole arbitter by any means...but, I do think it makes a statement. I wish that the normal Baptist Church choir would occassionally sing something (Or...at least try to.)
like this rendition of Psalm 23 by John Rutter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovPbeXYUD-g&feature=related

What sickens me personally....is that secular Universities have a truly better grasp of Divine Music than the Average Baptist Church does...and I really mean that. I have little better opinion of the concept of worshipful music concieved of in most of the Fundamentalist "Universities" we "Educate ourselves" at. I sang that particular song at The University of Florida (of all places)...and yes, we were required to wear robes....

I Must be honest....If I had a talented Son who asked me whether he ought to study Music at a Secular State University or Baptist Bible College in Springfield....I would send him to the State University....

Off of soap-box.

EXTREMELY well said in my opinion!

 

[convicted1]

It is not corporate worship which God commands to be done ALONG WITH "thanksliving".

We don't get to do the latter to replace the former. We don't get to kill two birds with one stone when it comes to what God expects of us in the matter of worship.

We are to do the best we can at both. Not focus on one and leave the other half done.

Sloppy worship services are blasphemy. Read the book of Malachi to see how God feels about this.

Brother Luke, how could anything I posted be construed as sloppy worship? What I am trying to convey, and apparently failing miserably, is that one doesn't have to be in a church building, or even in a crowd of two or three, to worship God. Worship comes from the heart, and that heart must be turned towards God before true worship can be obtained. I have been coming home from work, and listening to some christian music, and have a worship service in my car. I am not saying you don't believe this is possible, but nothing I have posted in this thread even alludes to sloppy worship, IMO.

 

[Luke2427]

Brother Luke, how could anything I posted be construed as sloppy worship? What I am trying to convey, and apparently failing miserably, is that one doesn't have to be in a church building, or even in a crowd of two or three, to worship God. Worship comes from the heart, and that heart must be turned towards God before true worship can be obtained. I have been coming home from work, and listening to some christian music, and have a worship service in my car. I am not saying you don't believe this is possible, but nothing I have posted in this thread even alludes to sloppy worship, IMO.

I didn't say that YOU were advocating sloppy worship.

That is what this thread is about.

I am saying though that your comments represent a very one sided view of worship.

EVERYBODY today believes that you worship God by "thanksliving". Me, you, Arminians, Calvinists, Traditionalists, Contemporarians (i made it up:smilewinkgrin.

But the problem is that people advocate THAT in the place of reverent corporate worship.

It is not either, or. It is both and.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I honestly think we may sum-up the discussion by including "Luke's" words here:

I think the error that you are making here and that is common today is to think that the New Testament is all we should look to for indications of how we should worship.
I don't think we should JUST look to the New Testament for JUST ABOUT any instruction.
Even where the New Testament "abolishes" (not the best word but for sake of brevity...) some teaching of the Old Testament we still NEED the OT teaching to put the NT teaching in its proper context.
But MOST of what we learn about corporate worship comes from the OT.
I honestly think it would be a TRAGIC mistake to snuff at the OT here.

This is to say that....those who are in defense of modern musical forms and some "freedom" or "laxity" or "stylistic defferrence" in music are absolutely NOT "WRONG"....yes...Drums and electric guitars are absolutely possibly appropriate instruments to use.....God has told us to "clap your hands"...and "clapping hands" is nothing but keeping time with what is essentially "Percussion"....that isn't the argument...attitude is.

I think Luke has a point. and the point is summed-up perfectly by his explanation that the OT must be referred to when it comes to an appropriate "Spirit" or "Attitude" when it comes to approaching God. And though we in the "NT era" have some freedom to express (what with us being mostly gentiles and what-not)....the Spirit of how we should approach God is simply one of true AWE and I say again....FEAR.

The OT gives us some insight into this. And I think we need to pause when we incorporate drumsets and electric guitars (none of which are INHERENTLY bad) to insure that we have created an atmosphere truly conducive to the approaching the audience of ONE with the appropriate sacrifice of praise.
We are NOT singing to the congregation...we are singing to GOD.


Does "GOD".........want to hear an off-key choir? Or are we simply too weak and scared to tell someone that they are no good...and they should NOT sing in the choir as their talents are no good here....and it's cute that you want to join us...but God never "called" you to sing with us, as you are deaf and sound horrid...and I simply WILL NOT put that in front of my Lord God and King. <----This last paragraph (BTW) is ENTIRELY HoS...don't blame Luke for any of it. :thumbs:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

EXTREMELY well said in my opinion!

But...Did you grasp the un-mitigated AMAZING-NESS of PETRA????
I cite here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVYTULb33kU

Yes, I know....they are THAT GOOD...The key-boardist is this good earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6xv1D9C4OI
No...... Greg X. Volz was NOT singing "falsetto" when he sang the Soprano part of the "Hallelujah Chorus" (one octave lower).....and yes the keyboardist is simply that good...

So, yes....you "Can" use drums and electric guitars to "worship"....but, get the attitude right first.......:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Take THAT "Jars of Clay"........

 

[OldRegular]

I suppose a follow-up question would be: Is it really accurate to say that the worship service is for God, not for us? Does God need something from us, or do we need something from him? Paul instructs us to sing songs "to one another" not necessarily just to God...that we may be admonished and taught.

I would say that worship is for God. Jesus Christ told the woman at the well:

John 4:21-23
21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

We worship God and if our worship is in spirit and in truth, is acceptable to God, then we are blessed by God.

I agree with Luke that a spirit of reverence is necessary for true worship of God. If we don't reverence God we sure cannot worship Him. That being said worship cannot be elitist. So what if someone in the choir misses a note. We are told to make a "joyful noise unto the Lord", not sing in complete harmony. If that were required we could simply use a CD of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir! Some of the mega-churches may be able to assemble a choir that never misses a note but I suspect that most churches are unable to assemble such.

Back to the need for reverence. It is my opinion that what passes for worship in the so-called contemporary services are irreverent and not acceptable to God.

 

[Luke2427]

I would say that worship is for God. Jesus Christ told the woman at the well:

John 4:21-23
21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

We worship God and if our worship is in spirit and in truth, is acceptable to God, then we are blessed by God.

I agree with Luke that a spirit of reverence is necessary for true worship of God. If we don't reverence God we sure cannot worship Him. That being said worship cannot be elitist. So what if someone in the choir misses a note. We are told to make a "joyful noise unto the Lord", not sing in complete harmony. If that were required we could simply use a CD of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir! Some of the mega-churches may be able to assemble a choir that never misses a note but I suspect that most churches are unable to assemble such.

Back to the need for reverence. It is my opinion that what passes for worship in the so-called contemporary services are irreverent and not acceptable to God.

I appreciate what you are saying. I would just say that the same Bible that says to make a joyful noise says to play "skillfully" and no where says to make that noise poorly.

The point is that we ought to do the best we can with what God has given us and always be seeking to do better and better.

 

[OldRegular]

I appreciate what you are saying. I would just say that the[/B] same Bible that says to make a joyful noise says to play "skillfully" and no where says to make that noise poorly.

I agree. But a given church must use what talent they have. A small congregation with a hundred or so adults is unlikely to be able to assemble a choir in which no one misses a note.

Frankly, I have often believed that the Church might be better off if the choir were dispersed among the congregation. Too often the choir is devoted to presenting a flawless performance, worthy of congregational praise, rather than making joyful and reverential music worthy of acceptance by God as worship!

The point is that we ought to do the best we can with what God has given us and always be seeking to do better and better.

I don't believe anyone could disagree with that as long as the end gal is acceptable worship of God.

I would also add that I believe all those who are routinely employed in Church functions whether it be singing in the choir, teaching a SS class, or teaching in any capacity ahould be members of the Church, not outside help.

 

[12strings]

Heir of Salvation said something about you that I want to agree with.

He is right, imo. You are very gracious and thoughtful in these discussions.

I am learning from you. Keep it up!

Now, let me tell you where I disagree with your comments quoted above.

I think the error that you are making here and that is common today is to think that the New Testament is all we should look to for indications of how we should worship.

I don't think we should JUST look to the New Testament for JUST ABOUT any instruction.

Even where the New Testament "abolishes" (not the best word but for sake of brevity...) some teaching of the Old Testament we still NEED the OT teaching to put the NT teaching in its proper context.

But MOST of what we learn about corporate worship comes from the OT.

I honestly think it would be a TRAGIC mistake to snuff at the OT here.

Keep in mind that in the NT the church is young, mostly poor, politcally impotent and persecuted.

The NT Christians were in much the same shape as the OT Jews in Egypt- at least politically.

How did the Jews worship in Egypt? You see, this is the error you're making. When they were free, prospered and able they built the tabernacle and then later the Temple. God was FOR THAT. God commanded them to do it.

How did the Jews worship in Babylon? This is the error you're making.


The entire OT which we should not haphazardly cast aside.
And, I think some thoughtful common sense. We were made to do what we will do in heaven forever. Church is obviously a foreshadowing of that.

I can appreciate not wanting to cast aside the OT. I agree that much of what we learn about worshiping God comes form the OT. It is why I don't think there is warrant for excluding loud instruments.

However I do think that there are times when the NT emphasis on Christ and his Gospel and the mission of the church takes precedent...I think the emphasis in the Epistles on what the early church did when they gathered is one of these times: Preaching equipping the saints, prayer for God's empowerment and help, Breaking the bread in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice, fellowship for building up each other for the sake of following Christ and enduring hardship. Various people brought words for edification or encouragement.

I actually DO think we may compare our experience to Israel in Babylon, in that we are not told to settle in to a permanent location and simply exist as we worship God, but to be also going out.

Another example of this principle might be the "be fruitful and multiply." In the OT, especially in Israel, Growing a family was exactly what God wanted them to do. However, there may be good reasons today for a missionary, or pastor, or even a lay family to seek to limit the number of children they have so their entire time is not spent caring for their own family, but they have more energy and resources to minister to others.

All that said, to clarify, I do agree that corporate worship of God has a special place that cannot be substituted by private worship, or simply godly living, or even Christian fellowship times, and that it must be taken seriously. I also agree that we cannot depend on corporate worship to be the PRIMARY evangelism tool of the church.

I simply believe (1) that the use of drums/guitars can in some cases contribute to this goal, and (2) that there are other good goals involved in corporate worship (beyond direct praise to and reverence of God) that are not only allowable, but prescribed and modeled for us in the NT: Edification of believers, mutual encouragement through singing songs to each other, presenting the Gospel in a clear way so outsiders can understand it.

 

[12strings]

It is my opinion that what passes for worship in the so-called contemporary services are irreverent and not acceptable to God.

On other problem with this discussion is "how do you define contemporary?"...and "what part of that definition makes a worship service irreverent and unacceptable?"

At one of our services (which included an acoustic guitar, bass guitar, grand piano, and drum set), I heard that a visitor appreciated how "Traditional" we were. Go figure.


And I might add for Luke that John MacArthur's church does use contemporary music on occasions.

 

[Luke2427]

On other problem with this discussion is "how do you define contemporary?"...and "what part of that definition makes a worship service irreverent and unacceptable?"

At one of our services (which included an acoustic guitar, bass guitar, grand piano, and drum set), I heard that a visitor appreciated how "Traditional" we were. Go figure.


And I might add for Luke that John MacArthur's church does use contemporary music on occasions.

This is not about whether the music is contemporary or old.

It is about whether or not it is conducive to an environment of reverence, transcendence and awe which is suitable for the worship of Almighty God.

It is also an error to presume that "reverence" is strictly subjective.

It is not and we all know it.

Many of us watched the service at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier today.

They did not invite Gallhager for a reason.

Reverence is not subjective.

We know when something is mostly about being cool and hip and we know when something is primarily geared to be transcendent and reverent.

Let's don't act like we don't.

 

[12strings]

This is not about whether the music is contemporary or old.

It is about whether or not it is conducive to an environment of reverence, transcendence and awe which is suitable for the worship of Almighty God.

It is also an error to presume that "reverence" is strictly subjective.

It is not and we all know it.

Many of us watched the service at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier today.

They did not invite Gallhager for a reason.

Reverence is not subjective.

We know when something is mostly about being cool and hip and we know when something is primarily geared to be transcendent and reverent.

Let's don't act like we don't.

I think I can pretty much agree with all this, and yet still believe that, used tastefully, an band with guitar & drums can contribute to this goal...and that, used poorly or excessively, a pipe organ can detract from this goal.