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A simple Example of Evolutionism's fiction

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by UTEOTW:
[QB] Again you go through the false quotes.
There you go again claiming that EXACT quotes are "false quotes" simply because they are inconvenient facts getting in the way of your "stories".

Surely you can do better.


UTEOTW
You have been shown the truth many times and yet you choose to perpetuate lies. Eldredge says that is lamentable to present the old outdated version of the horse series.
You mean the "ALL WRONG" and "DISCARDED" horse series? Is THAT the one?

Indeed it IS LAMENTABLE that you would continue to prop it up.

Does ELDRDGE call it the "OLD version" ?? Is that IN THE QUOTE or are you "making it up"?

Please use DETAILS - and EXACT quotes of ELDRIDGE speaking of the OLD VERSION vs the "new version"??

UTEOTW
Simpson talks in the sentences immediately following your quote about trends and horse evolution and concludes that THE horse series is a "classic: example of evolution in action.
And so do I make that same claim. THE Horse series - and yes - there is only one - is the perfect and BEST example of "evolutionism in action".

ALL WRONG as it is (according to the evolutionist) and DISCARDED as it is (according to the evolutionist).

Amazing - isn't it??

UTEOTW
Patterson is merely saying that you cannot know ancestor / descendent relationships for sure.
hmmm "imagine that"!!

What does the Christian say?? Why they say that there ARE no macro evolution ancestors.

What does Patterson say - it is EASY to MAKE UP STORIES like that - but it is NOT science.

If the VERY point you need to prove is NOT available in science then the evolutionist argument fails.

EVEN a LEAF node needs to have ONE ANCESTOR BACK.

Indeed it is JUNK-SCIENCE!

In Christ,

Bob
 

UTEOTW

New Member
"There you go again claiming that EXACT quotes are "false quotes" simply because they are inconvenient facts getting in the way of your "stories"."

They are false quotes because you change the meaning of what the author intended. YOu are like the atheist who quotes the Bible as saying "There is no God." That, too is an exact quote. How would you respond?
 

Gup20

Active Member
I have been pouring over UTEOTW's statements and I have not found a single Bible verse to backup his claims. Interestingly enough, the entire YEC model is based upon scripture.

UTEOTW undermines his own faith. If he can non-literally interpret Genesis and give us a non-literal exegesis that supports evolution, let him do so. We will apply his standards to the whole of scripture and see if they pan out (for example, since Jesus, Paul, and other quote Genesis as literal, we will apply any non-literal exegesis UTEOTW gives us to the words of Christ and Paul).

You see, the Bible forms one clear, unified picture. To change the literality of the foundation is to change the leterality of the whole. [edited in: is literality a word? lol]

Otherwise, UTEOTW is simply arguing against God and ultimate truth.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
When Patterson claims "stories" are easy to make up but are NOT science -- "UTEOTW" practices some revisionist history by "recasting" that as saying "it is just hard to know FOR SURE" but still good facts and good science.

Notice how FAR from that revisionism Patterson's confession is --

So what is the truth about Archaeopteryx? Perhaps the late Colin Patterson, while serving as senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, summed it up best when he stated that Archaeopteryx has simply become a patsy for wishful thinking. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favored by natural selection. But such stories are not a part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test (as quoted in Sunderland, 1988, p. 102).
Because if you don't notice it - I certainly do.

Basically UTEOTW is doing a failed job of 'damage control' given the clear and obvious statement above (you know - my EXACT quote) and then calling me a liar because I dare to even POST this inconvient fact for evolutionism.

UTEOTW's problem is obvious.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by UTEOTW:
"There you go again claiming that EXACT quotes are "false quotes" simply because they are inconvenient facts getting in the way of your "stories"."

They are false quotes because you change the meaning of what the author intended.
You have yet to SHOW even ONE case of that WITH quotes - WITH my comments SHOWING that I "changed" anything in the EXACT quote.

That should embarrass you a little.

Now lets get back to how YOU define "STORY" - you know - one that is "EASY TO MAKE UP".

So what is the truth about Archaeopteryx? Perhaps the late Colin Patterson, while serving as senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, summed it up best when he stated that Archaeopteryx has simply become a patsy for wishful thinking. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favored by natural selection. But such stories are not a part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test (as quoted in Sunderland, 1988, p. 102).
Is it "STORY" as in "no way of knowing with HIGHER certainty than we ALREADY know the STORY"??

In Christ,

Bob
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Bob

I have given you Patterson's own response to this quote. He himself explains that he was only saying that you canno make ironclad statements of ancestor . descendent relationships. It is not damage control. It is the truth.

All that is needed to see your false quoting is to read the Simpson quote the way you present it and the way it reads in context. You say it says the horse series does not exist. When the rest of the text is added, anyone can see that he says that the gradual series does not exist. He discussed trends in horse evolution, strange if he thought it did not happen. And he concluded that it is a "classic" example of evolution.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by UTEOTW:
[QB] Bob

I have given you Patterson's own response to this quote. He himself explains that he was only saying that you cannot make ironclad statements of ancestor . descendent relationships.
Sadly for you he did not "ONLY say you can not make iron clad statments" he ALSO SAID

Colin Patterson, while serving as senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, summed it up best when he stated that Archaeopteryx has simply become a patsy for wishful thinking. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favored by natural selection. But such stories are not a part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test (as quoted in Sunderland, 1988, p. 102).
#1. Such claims about ancestors – have their roots in “stores” that are “easy enough to MAKE UP” as Patterson says.
#2. Those “stories” are NOT science. (And we have always maintained that taking NOT-science and pretending it “IS” science is the essence of JUNK-science). This goes far beyond a simple argument that we know something with 90% certainty but not 93% certainty.
#3. Patterson observes “There is NO WAY of testing them” – that goes FAR beyond the word-twisting published by evolutionists doing damage control here saying “he was arguing for 90% certainly instead of 92% certainty”. “NO WAY” is in fact “NO WAY”

Now when you "Spin that down" to your claim that he was "only saying that you cannot make ironclad statements" you are indeed doing a failed job of "damage control".

And it is "obvious" that if it were REALLY true that the ONLY quote we had from him shows that he ONLY said "you cannot make ironclad statements" your task in damage control would have been minimal.

Sadly for you - that is not the case.

The "details" are never the friend of the evolutionist.

Your false quoting would have us ignore the verbatim quote from Patterson above and "pretend" instead that he was "only saying that you cannot make ironclad statements"

How "nice" that would be for you. How sad that the other quotes are available and true and accurate.

And how sad for you that the Christian argument has been all along that these "stories" about ancestors were (as Patterson said) "NOT Science" -


UTEOTW He discussed trends in horse evolution, strange if he thought it did not happen. And he concluded that it is a "classic" example of evolution.
#1. My very POINT in isolating this one shining example is because I AGREE that this IS the best evolutionism has to offer.

#2. You continually point out that atheist evolutionists are STILL atheist and STILL evolutionists EVEN when they say things like these "stories" about ancestors - so easily "made up" are "NOT SCIENCE". I never disputed that.

But you like to pretend "it is a proof" for evolutionism. Yet it is the SAME proof for atheistm - for they are atheist "anyway" as they cling to the atheists only choice for the doctrine of origins - EVEN though he says these "stories" are NOT science.

In Christ,

Bob
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Bob

A long time ago this passed to the point where I was violoating the standard of not answering a fool according to his folly. I am not quite sure why Icontinue. You obviously have no scruples when it comes to debate. Facts are unnecessary and accurately quoting others is not important at all to you. You throw out misquote after misquote and continue to do so even after the truth has been revealed. I do not comprehend how you think lying about what others say and twisting their words to make them appear to say something they did not mean can either be convincing or pleasing to the Lord.

I have many times in the past given you Patterson's own opinion of the way his statement is being used by people like you. It is not a kind reference. I have given you in his own words how what he was saying is that it is not possible to tell whether a given fossil in a direct ancestor or a closely related side branch. I have even given you the following statement from Patterson.

"In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil 'missing links', such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes. . ."
Now if you think that not knowing whether a given fossil is a direct ancestor or a closely related side branch is a huge problem for evolution, then by all means go on quoting Dr. Patterson. If you do not think that this is a problem then stop quoting Dr. Patterson It is as simple as that. But if you have an honest bone in your body, you will stop quoting PAtterson as if he is saying something he did not mean the way you present it.

I will not be holding my breath.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
"My very POINT in isolating this one shining example is because I AGREE that this IS the best evolutionism has to offer."

Agree with whom?

Simpson said "The evolution of the horse family, Equidae, is now no better known than that of numerous other groups of organisms, but it is still a classic example of evolution in action, and a very instructive example when correctly presented."

"...no better known..." What part of that indicates "best" to you?

"You continually point out that atheist evolutionists are STILL atheist and STILL evolutionists EVEN when they say things like these "stories" about ancestors - so easily "made up" are "NOT SCIENCE". I never disputed that."

No. I point out that you cannot quote scientists in a manner that preserves their initial intent.

In your favorite Simpson quote he is arguing that gradual evolution is not the norm and he uses the horse as an example. He says that the gradual series that was assumed when only a few specimens were knwon was found to not have really occurred as more data comes in and showns a complex, bushy, jerky pattern of evolution for the horse.

If you find bushy, jerky mechanisms to be a problem for evolution, by all means continue to qute Dr. Simpson. If you wish to change the meaning of his statement and continue to insist that he claims the horse did not evolve, then I must ask you to stop. If you have an honest bone in your body, you will quit lying to us about what Simpson meant in his statement.

I will not be holding my breath.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by UTEOTW:
You obviously have no scruples when it comes to debate. Facts are unnecessary and accurately quoting others is not important at all to you. You throw out misquote after misquote
Here is the part I don't get. You try failed attempt after failed attempt at damage control by using one method and one method only. IGNORING the actual details of the EXACT quotes given from your OWN atheist evolutionist sources!!

That is amazing!

You find some OTHER quote from them that you PREFER and then argue that to admit to the EXISTENCE of EXACT quotes from these SAME sources that do NOT agree with you - consitutes a "misquote"!!!

How in the world can such flawed logic every make carry the day with you? How can you rest at night knowing that such a blatantaly failed approach as the above is all you have to offer?

I can't believe you take your own arguments seriously if that is how you have to spin it for damage control.

The quote I gave IS ACCURATE and EXACT and is not only NOT a misquote - but the DETAILS in the quote are so devastating to your case - you can not even address them!

How in the world can you live with that???

How in the world can you respond with that factless statement about "misquote" on each EXACT quote that displeases you??

Surely evolutionists have something "better" to offer.

I call for at least some self-respect on your part to put forward a response based on something other than blind revisionism and a failed hope that EXACT quotes can be "ignored" when you call them misquotes.

The truth has been shown to you time after time and yet you simply ignore the DETAILS of your OWN atheist evolutionist icons IF they speak OTHER than would please you!!

I can't believe you would be satisfied with your approach here. If your case is really that hopeless why not abandon evolutionism and come over to good science - and to the light and to faitful exegesis?

It seems so obvious.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
UTETOW
I do not comprehend how you think lying about what others say
You have failed to "actually" show a single lie - rather all you can show is EXACT QOUTES accurate in every detail AND then you can only show that you "ignore the details" in those quotes.

Your tactic is simply to look for "another quote" that you "like better".

That failed form of damage control has never worked in any venue on any topic known to mankind.

How in the world can you expect it to work here??

You provide your "preferred quote" and the IGNORE the "details" of the EXACT quote with the "iconvenient facts" so devastating to your POV.

How sad. How obvious. How difficult for you to ignore.

UTEOTW

I have many times in the past given you Patterson's own opinion of the way his statement is being used by people like you.
You "pretend" to think it "amazing" that an atheist evolutionist would object to a Bible believing Christian finding "substantive insight" in Pattersons OWN confession that "MAKING UP STORIES ABOUT ANCESTORS is NOT SCIENCE" and is "EASY ENOUGH TO DO" and is in fact what people like you have been doing constantly.

How in the world would any objective reader EXPECT the atheist evolutionist to have reacted???

Come on! Please show an ounce of objectivity!

The fact that evolutionism is a self-contradicting religious system for atheist evolutionists is FOUNDATIONAL to the points raised so far.

Your pointing out that contradiction IN those very atheist evolutionists does NOT make YOUR case it makes MINE!

How can this be so hard for you to get??

That is the part I find difficult.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Now if you think that not knowing whether a given fossil is a direct ancestor or a closely related side branch is a huge problem for evolution, then by all means go on quoting Dr. Patterson.
And "obviously" I DO show that very thing - that NOT KNOWING that A is the ancestor of B poses a HUGE problem for evolutionism.

What is the part you don't get?

If you do not think that this is a problem then stop quoting Dr. Patterson
Errr. umm... actually I DO think it is problem.

It is as simple as that. But if you have an honest bone in your body, you will stop quoting PAtterson as if he is saying something he did not mean the way you present it.

I will not be holding my breath.
I urge you to try objective thought for a change. Consider for a moment that Patterson was telling the truth EVEN in quote you so hate to give and to SEE the details in.. Suppose that instead of IGNORING that exact quote - you had to pay attention to it.

Notice the force it adds to the argument for God's word! NOTICE what Creation-trusting models would PREDICT in that VERY CASE??

I mean - does it ALL escape you??

In Christ,

Bob
 

UTEOTW

New Member
"The quote I gave IS ACCURATE and EXACT and is not only NOT a misquote - but the DETAILS in the quote are so devastating to your case - you can not even address them!"

It is not simply enough to list all the words in the right order as you seem to think. When you present the quote in a manner that makes it appear that the author was saying something different than what was intended, that it dishonest. Period. You are just like the atheist who quotes the Bible as saying "There is no God." The answer to that lie is to give the full quote. The answer to your dishonest quotes is show the full quote and let it be known that the author intended something different than the way you have it presented.

I tell you what. Let's play a game. Now this game really is a trap for you, you see. Here is how the game works. I am going to post the full Simpson quote. You will paraphrase THE WHOLE QUOTE in your own words telling us what you think Simpson was saying throughout the whole quote. This is where the trap comes in. To refuse to do so will be a tacit admission that you are not quoting him honestly. You cannot affors not to play. But if you do play, you have a choice. You can continue to insist that SImpson says that the horse sequence never existed and therefore the horse sequence is wrong. But if you do so you will have to do some very creative paraphrasing of the rest of the quote. It will be obvious to the reader what you have done. On the otherhand, you could give an even appraisal of the quote, but then it will be obvious that you have no point to make from the quote. This wil be such fun. Remember, a failure to comply will be viewed as an admission that you have not quoted Simpson honestly. I will hang that over your head.

The evolution of the horse family included, indeed, certain trends, but none of these was undeviating or orthogenetic. The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature. Increases in size, for instance, did not occur at all during the first third of the whole history of the family. Then it occurred quite irregularly, at different rates and to different degrees in a number of different lines of descent. Even after a trend toward larger size had started it was reversed in several groups of horses which became smaller instead of larger. As already briefly noted, the famous “gradual reduction of the side toes” also is something that never happened. There was no reduction for the 15 or 20 million years of the history. There was relatively rapid reduction from four front toes to three (the hind foot already had only three toes). Many horses simply retained the new sort of foot without further change. In one group there was later another relatively rapid change of foot mechanism involving some reduction in size of the side toes, which, however, remained functional. Thereafter most horses retained this type of foot without essential change. In just one group, again, another relatively rapid change eliminated functional side toes, after which their descendants simply retained the new sort of foot. (Fig. 39)

In the history of the horse family there is no known trend that affected the whole family. Moreover, in any one of the numerous different lines of descent there is no known trend that continued uniformly in the same direction and at the same rate throughout. Trends do not really have to act that way: there are not really orthogenetic.

(The evolution of the horse family, Equidae, is now no better known than that of numerous other groups of organisms, but it is still a classic example of evolution in action, and a very instructive example when correctly presented…)
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Let me give you an example of what I am talking about by paraphrasing it myself. This will also allow the reader to compare the original with my paraphrase and your paraphrase and see who they think comes closest to the original. All very instructive in your tactics.

Early on the tempo of evolution was believed to be that of slow, steady, gradual change from one species to another. We said that the process was orthogenetic. The horse, as an example, has long been shown in textbooks with this type of change. A very gradual and progrssive change from Hyracotherium, the earliest horse, to Equus, the genus that includes the modern horse and the zebra. This gradual transformation, however, never actually occured in nature!

When examining the trends in the evolution of the horse, no single pattern emerges. Instead of a gradual increase in size, we instead see no change in size through the first third of the sequence. Even after that, the changes in size were not steady. Some lines of descent showed large changes in size while others showed small changes. Some groups of horse even followed the increase in size with a decrease in size.

The same thing can also be seen in the reduction of the number of toes. The reduction was not gradual. For the first 15-20 million years of the sequence, the horses maintained the four toes on the front feet of Hyracotherium. Then the front feet rapidly reduced to three toes. After this, most of the horse genera simply maintained the three toed foot. In one group, the side toes rapidly reduced in size. After this change, most of the decendent genera simply maintained this new foot. However, the was agin a small group from this group that shrunk the side toes further and gave rise to the modern horse.

As seen, there is no trend in the history of the horse family that affected the whole family. Even in individual lines of descent, there were not any traits that steadily and gradually changed even in just that one line. This is because trends in evolution really do not have to act that way. Trends in evolution need not be orthogenetic.

We now have a very complete fossil record of the horse family, Equidae. There are many other fossil series, however, that are known at least equally well. But, the horse series must be presented correctly with all its fits and starts and stops. The simple, gradual presentation is incorrect. But, when presented correctly, the horse series is still a classic example of evolution in action and can be very instructive.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob comments on UTEOTW's tendancy to label a quote as a "misquote" any time UTEOTW finds an EXACT quote of one of his atheist icons that is displeasing to the gods of evolutionism.

Bob said
"The quote I gave IS ACCURATE and EXACT and is not only NOT a misquote - but the DETAILS in the quote are so devastating to your case - you can not even address them!"
Originally posted by UTEOTW:

It is not simply enough to list all the words in the right order
Indeed. In an actual debate where you want to formulate a "compelling argument" you also have to deal with the DETAILS in the quote - INSTEAD of simply ignoring the "inconvenient details" in EXACT quotes and casting about you for some "other" more preferred quote from the same source.

One of the salient points in my argument is that evolutionism is error. That means it is inherently self-conflicted contradictory which means that the atheist evolutionists I am quoting should be EXPECTED to show that SAME degree of internally-conflicted contradictory devotion to the religion of evolutionism while still clinging to some light left in them from actual science.

UTEOTW is embarrassingly stuck in the damage control mode of having to "pretend" that this point "escapes" UTEOTW, as the DETAILS in the undesired quotes are continually IGNORED.

How sad that evolutionism would force you into such a less-than-compelling form of argument.

as you seem to think. When you present the quote in a manner that makes it appear that the author was saying something different than what was intended
That has nothing to do with the facts of the quotes. I show NOTHING of the kind either IN the quote or after it and you have been unnable to support your wild claims in this matter just as you have failed to support the myths and blunders we know as evolutionism.

What I DID show is that the "stories easily MADE UP" relate to claims about direct continuous ancestor chains - SUCH AS the horse series first presented in the late 1800's.

What I DID show is that all the junk-science endorsement of those bogus claims was "NOT SCIENCE" at all. It was simply the endorsement of a "story easily made up" AS IF that was science.

I have SHOWN that that horse series "had to be DISCARDED".

I did NOT show that atheists are now Christians over that.

I dod NOT show (or claim) that atheist evolutionists turned into Christians over that embarrassing 'detail' about evolutionism.

In fact I stated that those devotees maintain cultic fervor in clinging to evolutionism 'anyway'.

So your "Bob says they do not believe in evolutionism any more" rabbit trail - should 'end' some time in the near future - since nobody is falling for it.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
We now have a very complete fossil record of the horse family, Equidae. There are many other fossil series, however, that are known at least equally well. But, the horse series must be presented correctly with all its fits and starts and stops.
And by that you mean

"Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin, and knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. ... Ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information."
D. Raup, "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, 50, pg 24, 1979.
The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however, reasonable, not the evidence of fossils.” “Evolution’s Erratic Pace,” Natural History 86 (May 1977): p. 14. [Emphasis added - ed.]
From these quotes we discover that EVEN among evolutionism’s faithful the certainty of grandiose claims for change – becomes LESS true over time as Real science confronts junk-science speculation with “details” replacing guesswork with some “fact”.
"Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time.

"By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information. What appeared to be a nice, simple progression when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin’s problem [with the fossil record] has not been alleviated."—*David M. Raup, in Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin 50 (1979), p. 29.
So then - the horse series presented in the late 1800's and believed fervently by evolutoinism's devotees in the 1900's was simply a "story easily made up" and NOT science??

Really?

Let us see.

"The ancestral family tree of the horse is not what scientists have thought it to be. Prof. T.S. Westoll, Durham University geologist, told the British Association for the Advancement of Science at Edinburgh that the early classical evolutionary tree of the horse, beginning in the small dog-sized Eohippus and tracing directly to our present day Equinus, was all wrong."—*Science News Letter, August 25, 1951, p. 118.

"There was a time when the existing fossils of the horses seemed to indicate a straight-lined evolution from small to large, from dog-like to horse-like, from animals with simple grinding teeth to animals with complicated cusps of modern horses . . As more fossils were uncovered, the chain splayed out into the usual phylogenetic net, and it was all too apparent that evolution had not been in a straight line at all. Unfortunately, before the picture was completely clear, an exhibit of horses as an example . . had been set up at the American Museum of Natural History [in New York City], photographed, and much reproduced in elementary textbooks."—*Garrett Hardin, Nature and Man’s Fate (1960), pp. 225-226. (Those pictures are still being used in those textbooks.
)
Hmmm I guess so.

Question on DETAILS - was the EASILY told story of horse series evolution still POPULARLY TOLD as late as the 1980's?


The popularly told example of horse evolution, suggesting a gradual sequence of changes from four-toed fox-sized creatures living nearly 50 million years ago to today’s much larger one-toed horse, has long been known to be wrong. Instead of gradual change, fossils of each intermediate species appear fully distinct, persist unchanged, and then become extinct. Transitional forms are unknown.
B. Rensberger, Houston Chronicle, Nov 5, 1980, sec. 4 pg 15.
Surely the DETAIL of the time of the quote and the "popularly told" fact is not escaping those with open minds here.

So IS the horse series a CLASSIC example of evolutionary change?

"Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin, and knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. ... Ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information."
D. Raup, "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, 50, pg 24, 1979.
It certainly is - and is discarded.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Raup says "Darwins problem with the fossil record has NOT been alleviated".

Please expound on HIS point there UTEOTW.


In Christ,

Bob

"one detail at a time"
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Bob, it is not worth going down this path with you any longer.

You have responded to the thread without the demanded paraphrasing of the FULL Simpson quote. You have merely responded with more false quotes, the true context of which has been pointed out to you.

If you are honestly quoting Simpsin, then go though the quote, line by line, sentence by sentence, paraphrasing it in your own words and with your own interpretation.

That you refuse to do so is a tactic admission that you have not honestly quoted him. Otherwise you would be able to paraphrase the whole wuote in a manner that supports your claims. By not doing so you reveal that it is not possible to reconcile what you say he said with what he actually said.

From now on, when you start quoting such, I will be giving this same challenge with the same full quote and my paraphrase for comparison. If you ever respond, then I might be forced to pull out the full quote and each of our paraphrases when you begin quoting.

This is a trap I have set for you. You are in it. The only question is will you die quickly by playing my game or will you de slowly with me forced to hound you with the fact that you have not played the game?
 

UTEOTW

New Member
I'll meet your challenge but I do not expect you to comply with mine. Just what was Raup talking about...?

Well let's add some perspective by quoting a little more widely from the source material.

LEt's go all the way back to page 21.

We must distinguish between the fact of evolution -- defined as change in organisms over time -- and the explanation of this change. Darwin's contribution, through his theory of natural selection, was to suggest how the evolutionary change took place. The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be.
Right off the bat, Raup tries to draw a difference between the FACT of evolution and the explanation of how that change occurred. When he speaks of Darwin, he is speaking specifically of slow, gradual change.

Now on the next page he states

Now let me step back from the problem and very generally discuss natural selection and what we know about it. I think it is safe to say that we know for sure that natural selection, as a process, does work. There is a mountain of experimental and observational evidence, much of it predating genetics, which shows that natural selection as a biological process works.
Look at his own words. The source you choose to use in the paper you choose to quote. There is a "mountain" of evidence to support even gradual change through natural selection. Evolution through natural selection is a process that is shown to work.

On the next page.

Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin's time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. and it is not always clear, in fact it's rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find.
Now we start getting to the crux of the matter. Raup supports puncutate equilibrium which says that most change is not gradual. Instead it is "highly uneven or jerky." While natural selection has "mountains" of data to show that it works, the data also show that it is far from the most common mechanism. This is in conflict with Darwin's own initial predictions. Darwin expected change to be dominated by the mechanism of natural selection resulting in gradual change across the board. THis is not what we find.

Your quote.

Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin, and knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. ... Ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information.
First, could you find the full quote and give it for us? You always worry me with those ellipsis. I'd like to know what you are cutting out. It is normally important and not charitable to your position.

But, it should not start becoming clear what Raup was saying. It is Darwinian style, natural selection driven, gradual change that is not improving very quickly in quantity of data. Remember though, he has already said there is a "mountian" of evidence to support even this mechanism.

Also on the same page.

We must distinguish between the fact of evolution -- defined as change in organisms over time -- and the explanation of this change. Darwin's contribution, through his theory of natural selection, was to suggest how the evolutionary change took place. The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be.
Again, it is gradual change to which Raup is objecting here.

Finally, on the next page.

What appeared to be a nice progression when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin's problem has not been alleviated in the last 120 years and we still have a record which does show change but one which can hardly be look upon as the most reasonable consequence of natural selection.
This is your explanation. The original horse series, the one that was constrained by being assumed to be Dawinian in nature, the one that was assumed to follow a gradual process, had to be modified when more data was made available. When we had only a few fossils, it appeared to be a nice, smooth progression. When we found more data, the series was able to be seen as "complez" and not "gradualistic." Instead it was "highly uneven [and] jerky."

Context has once again betrayed you. Now meet my trap...uh challenge to you. I have answered you. Give me the same courtesy.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Time after time UTEOTW chooses to ignore the inconvenient "details" of quotes that do not reflect well on the myths of evolutionism.

So I tried JUST ONE detail - not wishing to overwhelm UTEOTW

Bob said --

Raup says "Darwins problem with the fossil record has NOT been alleviated".

Please expound on HIS point there UTEOTW.
UTEOTW's "dodge" for this POINTED post is simply

Bob, it is not worth going down this path with you any longer
Now it is left as an exercise for the reader to observe the number of times that UTEOTW explicitly deals with the "DARWIN's problem is NOT alleviated" DETAIL.

Wait! Not it is not left as an exercise for the reader - it is PROVIDED here - the number of times UTEOTW answers the point - addresses the DETAIL is... Zero!!

How surprising that the dodge used above should be UTEOTW's answer to a point never responded to...

But not totally unnexpected.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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