A Simple Question With Implications.

[MartyF]

Since the proud and elected Baptists in here chose to be afraid to allow nonBaptists to post discussion within the Baptist only sub forums, this spot will serve.

Here is the question for them which even the most seasoned and confident Bible thumper who claims to know God cannot accurately answer.

If God did indeed have the power and ability to elect and appoint those who will be called to Righteousness and who will inherit The Kingdom, why then did He create as well the vast hoards who will be dammed? In light of this apparent Omnipotence and Sovereign Rule, what then is the purpose or function of The Damned?

Do your best to refrain from talking in circles and caveated uncertainty. Remember, Apostle James, theorized to be The Original Baptist, stated in 1:7 a guarantee of God's Bounteous Wisdom upon request for spiritual matters.

As well, recall the many times you have heard a babbling professional church talker proclaim how crucial it is "We Know Who We Are In Christ."

First, welcome to the forums.

Second, there are many types of Baptist, and although the Calvinists would love to change that, the majority of Baptists do not believe in election since before time began.

So, this post should most likely be in the Arminian vs. Calvinist debate section which is not in the Baptist-only section.

Quite frankly, your question doesn’t apply to all Baptists.

 

[Iconoclast]

MartyF,

Second, there are many types of Baptist, and although the Calvinists would love to change that, the majority of Baptists do not believe in election since before time began.

So you are saying the majority of baptists do not believe the [Calvinistic] doctrine of election?

 

[Reynolds]

First, welcome to the forums.

Second, there are many types of Baptist, and although the Calvinists would love to change that, the majority of Baptists do not believe in election since before time began.

So, this post should most likely be in the Arminian vs. Calvinist debate section which is not in the Baptist-only section.

Quite frankly, your question doesn’t apply to all Baptists.

I would say the majority of Baptists definitely believe Ephesians 1:4.

 

[utilyan]

Since the proud and elected Baptists in here chose to be afraid to allow nonBaptists to post discussion within the Baptist only sub forums, this spot will serve.

Here is the question for them which even the most seasoned and confident Bible thumper who claims to know God cannot accurately answer.

If God did indeed have the power and ability to elect and appoint those who will be called to Righteousness and who will inherit The Kingdom, why then did He create as well the vast hoards who will be dammed? In light of this apparent Omnipotence and Sovereign Rule, what then is the purpose or function of The Damned?

Do your best to refrain from talking in circles and caveated uncertainty. Remember, Apostle James, theorized to be The Original Baptist, stated in 1:7 a guarantee of God's Bounteous Wisdom upon request for spiritual matters.

As well, recall the many times you have heard a babbling professional church talker proclaim how crucial it is "We Know Who We Are In Christ."

I'm not a Calvinist. But a good God might be able to get away with running a Calvinist system for educational purposes create vast hordes who are damned and otherwise would never existed and equally just as separated from God as tho annihilated.

I sometimes attempt to contemplate a scenario to reconcile the Calvinist side with non Calvinist.

Can God pull off a Calvinist system that is TRULY GOOD and with a happy ending. I think he can do the impossible.

Lets start first with evil. Evil has its foundation in ignorance. And it is easily distinguishable as our maturity. The more evil you are the more immaturity is involved.

To God the most hideously spiteful evil person compares to a baby infant with the audacity to grab your finger and gnaw at it with his toothless mouth. The infants' intent may be nothing short of murder! But its cute.

Evil is harmless to God.

Romans 11

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


God will show you mercy on account of someone else being evil. So that mercy intended for another might come to you a grafted in branch. But the mercy shown to you THEY ALSO MAY NOW BE SHOWN MERCY.
God has thrown everyone in the same basket of disobedience. Both the best and worst. So he can have mercy on all.


When someone does evil they are victim to terrorizing motivations. Every sin is intrinsically dumb. There is no way around it, its plain ignorant.

God will ditch 99 good sheep for a lost one. Would 99 saints give up their salvation for the chance of one who never loved God to have a chance to change? They might. God is willing even to give up his own son for the sake of another. The love of God might even allow him to love someone who might only exist in a very optional Calvinist existence. Maybe even just to save one person even at the "price" of damnation to all other souls.

That is just one tiny attempt at a theory from me. God is a lot smarter than I am. There might be a solution to Calvinism we just haven't thought it through.

So in my scenario which could be absolutely wrong. God might allow for existence of very pure unrepentant evil with the educational purpose of teaching the redeemable. If God knows everything he may eve know what its like to be forcibly "good"

Again God is a lot smarter There might be a solution to Calvinism we just haven't thought it through.

 

[JarodAb]

I know, right?

Well, the question is answerable from the Bible, just not from the so-called Calvinistically defined 'pre-destiners', 'electors', etc, who all abuse those words and 'wrest' them to their own destruction as Peter warned them from doing, but they choose to do it anyway (but in their mindset, they cannot but do it since they were 'elected' to think stupidly, using their incoherent position). Then they turn around and mock those who do not agree with them, denying their very own position, in that even they follow through with what they actually believe and teach, then why argue with someone who is made that way by God to say what they say? Asinine. Let them blather on, that men may know them mad. They self-define who is saved and lost, and make themselves the standard of criteria.

God appointed and elected only 'one'. His Son, Jesus Christ.

Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mat 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Now, "whosoever will" may come and take of what God offers in His Son, and they become 'elect' in Him, and no other way. God chose His Son, and allows as many who "will" to choose His Son, even "freely". Anyone who refuses the Son, refused the Father, and chose themselves outside of the 'elect'.

Does God foreknow who will so choose to be in Christ. Absolutely. Does that negate the choice of anyone? Absolutely not.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Notice the "knowledge" part.

Will billions be lost? Absolutely yes. Did God make them just so they could experience the wrath of God and the lake of fire? Absolutely not. The fire was never meant for mankind, not a single person thereof:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire*, prepared for the devil and his angels:

All of mankind could have boarded the 'ark' of Genesis 3:15, Jesus Christ. But only a handful, compared to the billions will choose to board.

God is Omnipotent:

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

God is Sovereign:

Job_9:12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?

Yet the answer is found in Romans 9:

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God was longsuffering to those whom He knew who resist his mercies and grace, and sleight His offer in His Son, and therefore, demonstrates even through them, His perfect character of Love, Mercy & Justice.

God offered the choice of His Son to all.

Only those who take the unscriptural approach, as noted above, and wrest the scriptures will talk in circles, because their foundation was themselves.

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

For whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law, and the wages of sin is the second death.

So, I agree with James. Ask God, in Faith. God explains His own words.

A person can know that they are in Christ, but there are some who are deceived, because they have a false Christ, based upon themselves. They have made themselves the judge.

God has not offered the "choice of His Son" to those created for damnation

Do you care to admit this is true, and your false claim is to be retracted?

 

[JarodAb]

Thanks Jarod.

Some brotherly advice
No one is hopelessly damned but those who refuse His mercy (whom He sees from eternity past) He has prepared a place for them - eternally separated from Him which in reality is what they want, For God to just go away and leave them alone forever.

So you should use care with what you say... God has mercy upon whom He will Romans 9:15 - If anyone does not want His mercy He accommodates them. Yes He separates those of us who love Him from those who hate Him. What would anyone expect else wise?

So...
Ecclesiastes 10:20 Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, because a bird of the air may carry your words, and a bird on the wing may report what you say.

I precisely hope and expect my words for the "king" and for the rich will be quickly heard by them. Only a weak and pensive Bible thumper would want otherwise.

You forgot within your parroted church learning to cite Scripture which states God has prepared people damned from the foundation of the World to be in the Hell prepared for them. This is God's own admission.

 

[JarodAb]

I'm not a Calvinist. But a good God might be able to get away with running a Calvinist system for educational purposes create vast hordes who are damned and otherwise would never existed and equally just as separated from God as tho annihilated.

I sometimes attempt to contemplate a scenario to reconcile the Calvinist side with non Calvinist.

Can God pull off a Calvinist system that is TRULY GOOD and with a happy ending. I think he can do the impossible.

Lets start first with evil. Evil has its foundation in ignorance. And it is easily distinguishable as our maturity. The more evil you are the more immaturity is involved.

To God the most hideously spiteful evil person compares to a baby infant with the audacity to grab your finger and gnaw at it with his toothless mouth. The infants' intent may be nothing short of murder! But its cute.

Evil is harmless to God.

Romans 11

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


God will show you mercy on account of someone else being evil. So that mercy intended for another might come to you a grafted in branch. But the mercy shown to you THEY ALSO MAY NOW BE SHOWN MERCY.
God has thrown everyone in the same basket of disobedience. Both the best and worst. So he can have mercy on all.


When someone does evil they are victim to terrorizing motivations. Every sin is intrinsically dumb. There is no way around it, its plain ignorant.

God will ditch 99 good sheep for a lost one. Would 99 saints give up their salvation for the chance of one who never loved God to have a chance to change? They might. God is willing even to give up his own son for the sake of another. The love of God might even allow him to love someone who might only exist in a very optional Calvinist existence. Maybe even just to save one person even at the "price" of damnation to all other souls.

That is just one tiny attempt at a theory from me. God is a lot smarter than I am. There might be a solution to Calvinism we just haven't thought it through.

So in my scenario which could be absolutely wrong. God might allow for existence of very pure unrepentant evil with the educational purpose of teaching the redeemable. If God knows everything he may eve know what its like to be forcibly "good"

Again God is a lot smarter There might be a solution to Calvinism we just haven't thought it through.

There is indeed a more thorough explanation for God's creation of hopelessly damned people.

And, you have not one clue from Scripture, from your imagination, from the retrospect of Kingdom History, from the current Dispensation, or from Prophecy what it is.

 

[HankD]

I precisely hope and expect my words for the "king" and for the rich will be quickly heard by them. Only a weak and pensive Bible thumper would want otherwise.

You forgot within your parroted church learning to cite Scripture which states God has prepared people damned from the foundation of the World to be in the Hell prepared for them. This is God's own admission.

Please go back. Read again my posts.
Please stop putting words in my mouth because by so doing you become a false witness and a slanderer.
Please don't use pejorative language when referring to the Bible, God's word.

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

 

[GoodTidings]

MartyF,



So you are saying the majority of baptists do not believe the [Calvinistic] doctrine of election?

We don't believe in "unconditional election." There is a difference between the biblical doctrine of election and the Calvinistic view of "unconditional election." It's the same with our rejection of "total depravity." While we believe in the depravity of man, we don't accept the view of "total depravity."

 

[GoodTidings]

verse 4 says He chose us IN HIM.....very clear

Right, but Eph. 1:3-4 isn't saying that God chose who would or would not be saved. It is talking about what has chosen and predestinated for Christians to become. That passage refers to the end goal that God has in play for those who are redeemed.

 

[Alofa Atu]

God has not offered the "choice of His Son" to those created for damnation ...

Who was speaking in this text, and what is its context when this 'person' said, "If thou doest well, shall thou not be accepted"?:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

What does "if" mean?

Does God's Holy Spirit "strive with man"? If so, what for?, in your world view? If as you claim, God made them that way, what is the point of God 'striv[ing]'? It would be like a person trying to convince a robot they made to do other than what the designer programmed it to do, which would make the programmer insane (much like the god some people around here worship)

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

What was David afraid of? Why, what did he see happen to King Saul?

Psa_51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

What in the world was Joshua doing asking people to 'choose'?, was he just programmed that way, even though both groups of people could not possibly choose other than what thy were programmed to do?

Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

The theology you espouse will lead many people to destruction simply because of what its end result teaches, and not merely that, but blasphemes God directly. There is a woe upon you. You are warned. I told you the truth. In the day to come, you will be reminded of this conversation. You will then acknowledge the truth of what was said and shared with you from the scripture about God's perfect loving character. Therefore, seek God for repentance, and confess your error, otherwise, your chosen delusion will only grow the worse and darkness increase.

 

[Adonia]

That you even say that... 'devils advocate', says much. The devil doesn't need an 'advocate', so why step in to speak for him and his position? What are you, the medium, the serpent, used to speak? That position is already taken by this position:

Here is Satan's own, your very own Harlot.

 

[Adonia]

Why then are you doing the same?

You just cant engage in a respectful or fruitful discussion with this clown.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As Jerod just got banned for Denial of Paul's Apostleship, this thread is closed.