Featured A Skopos Version of John 17

LOL, there is no evidence Wycliffe was wrong, only evidence that the verse is traditionally translated either to or toward. Thus JOJ argument is if you deviate from a traditional choice, you are wrong. Good Grief, look at the number of novel translation choices in the HCSB. Or the NIV.

In several chases the expression (lifted up eyes) appears to address not the actual scene, but what the mind's eye sees. When we lift up our eyes and see fields white for harvest, are we seeing grain, of people open to the gospel.

 

You haven't paid attention. It was John Purvey who translated the "Wycliffe Bible". And Purvey based it on the Vulgate (one incarnation of it anyway.) Do you think the Vulgate is authoritative?

The NIV is staid in comparison to the HCSB. The latter has many quirky expressions.

Why are you still stuck on verse one? JoJ is already up to verse 13. You are falling behind.

 

To review:

1) The Greek idiom, lift up eyes, is found in several verses, including John 4:35, John 6:5, John 11:41 and John 17:1. It appears the idea is to stop looking at the world and look at the heavenly. So the idea appears to be look at the spiritual or godly, rather than the physical or worldly.

2) Some translations (Wycliffe and interlinear) translate John 17:1 as "into heaven". The vast majority do not.

3) It has been asserted that some rule of Greek grammar forbids looking into heaven when the verb for lifting up as found in John 17:1 is used. No supporting link has been offered.

4) Several commentaries suggest that Jesus was focusing His mind's eye upon the throne of God as He addressed His Father. No argument against this view has been offered.

5) I think John 17:1 is best translated to include "Jesus lifted up His vision into heaven." One translation or interpretation rule is if the straightforward meaning makes sense, seek no other sense. The core meaning of the Greek preposition "eis" is "into" i.e. entry into some place such as the spiritual throne room of God.

 

How many times must I say something before JOJ stops misrepresenting it? Same number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

But lets take JOJ verses and consider them:

1) Luke 6:20, the preposition "eis" is translated "at, to, on, unto" because contextually "into" does not make sense. But what does Jesus say next? Blessed on you who are poor for yours is the kingdom of God.
Nah, no chance the idea was Jesus was shifting His focus to spiritual things. Not a chance.

2) Luke 16:23, again the guy suffering in torment lifts up his vision to Abraham's bosom, a place of spiritual comfort. But according to some, this too does not fit.

3) When Jesus lifted up His eyes and gazed at the crowd, what did He see? People who needed feeding, people who would believe His miracles, people who might trust in Jesus. No chance He shifted His focus to spiritual matters.

4) John 13:18, Jesus is addressing a spiritual matter, the betrayal of the Messiah as foretold in scripture. No chance the idea is He shifted His focus from the mundane to the spiritual.

5) What interlinear? The Scripture4all online one. And yes, I own an interlinear (translation by Alfred Marshall) that says "to" rather than into. Bottom line JOJ claimed a basis for His idea that "into" was not a viable translation, but has yet to back it up. Instead he offers his opinion of me. Twaddle

6) Now we know there is no reason why "lifted up His vision into heaven" is not a valid translation.

7) Now after I supported my view with commentary, rather than offering a commentary that supports his view, he asks me to provide another.

8) Next we have the usual claim JOJ can read my mind and he knows my view on how "eis" is used in scripture. LOL

Bottom line, "eis" means "into" i.e. entry into something, such as the throne room of God.

 

Did I say Jesus was in the upper room? Nope. So yet another misrepresentation. Here is what I actually said:

Did JOJ answer that question? Nope. But instead he fabricated a flaw and address it. But the point remains valid. If Jesus was in the upper room, certainly a likely place, since scripture tells us of a change in location in the next chapter, did He look at the ceiling and John got it wrong? I think not.

 

Well Sir, some of us lowly least of His, struggle on as best we can.

 

Well Sir, I will not give up on you. Anyone engaged in full time or nearly full time ministry should be honored.

People who engage in petty bickering, turf wars, and the like should be viewed as people crying for help.

John 17:
1. After Jesus spoke these words, and lifted up His vision into heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come, glorify your Son that your Son may glorify you.”
2. Even as you gave Him authority over all flesh that He will give eternal life to them you have given to Him.
3. Moreover, this is eternal life – that they would know the only true God and Jesus Christ, the One you sent.
4. I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave Me to do.
5. Now Father, glorify Me along side you with the glory I had with you before the world existed.
6. I revealed your name to the disciples you have given Me out of the world; they were yours, and you have given them to Me. They have carefully kept your word. ​

 

Do we lift up our vision to heaven or into heaven?


"I lift up my eyes to you,
to you whose throne is in heaven.
As the eyes of slaves look to the hand of their master,
as the eyes of a maid look to the hand of her mistress,
so our eyes look to the LORD our God,
till he shows us his mercy. "

It seems the answer from scripture is into heaven.

 

John 17:7, Now they have known that all things whatever you have given me are from you, (WEB).

In comparing English translations, the verb rendered they have known, is also translated as they know. The verb is in the Perfect Tense, indicating a completed action, i.e. they have learned something in the past, but that knowledge continues in the present, i.e. they knew and still know. Since the idea is a statement of fact, their present knowledge, the choice of "they know" seems best.

Next, again the translations like either all things or everything. I think everything best captures the idea.

Next, the verb "you have given Me" is the choice of all the comparison translations.

The last phrase, "are (is) from you" contains an interesting preposition.
The word translated as "from" is the Greek "para" and means along side or beside. But the idea of close proximity includes being within the sphere of influence or power or control. Thus Jesus is saying everything He gave them was according to God's will.

Putting it all together we get: Now they know that everything you have given Me is from you.

 

. Because I have given to them the words which You had given Me, and they received and truly understand that I came from You, and they believe that You sent Me. (JOJ)

for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me (WEB)

If we accept that verse 7 is a complete sentence, then verse 8 begins a new sentence for the purpose of illustrating why the previous sentence is true. I think “because” better conveys that idea than “for or since.”

I like the phrase order given by JOJ (and the NET) so I have given them the “declarations” you have given me comes next. Note I tied together the “words” found in most if not all comparison translations, for the purpose of bringing to mind the truths of His gospel.

The next phrase, and ”they received them” seems a little weak, so I think “they took hold of them better presents the idea.

Next, I do not think JOJ’s effort can be improved upon, i.e. truly understand that I came from you and they believe you sent Me.

Putting it all together: Because I have given them the declarations you have given Me and they took hold of them and truly understand I came from you and believe you sent Me.

 

John 17:

1. After Jesus spoke these words, and lifted up His vision into heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come, glorify your Son that your Son may glorify you.”
2. Even as you gave Him authority over all flesh that He will give eternal life to them you have given to Him.
3. Moreover, this is eternal life – that they would know the only true God and Jesus Christ, the One you sent.
4. I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave Me to do.
5. Now Father, glorify Me along side you with the glory I had with you before the world existed.
6. I revealed your name to the disciples you have given Me out of the world; they were yours, and you have given them to Me. They have carefully kept your word.
7. Now they know that everything you have given Me is from you.
8. Because I have given them the declarations you have given Me and they took hold of them and truly understand I came from you and believe you sent Me.​

 

A quick note on verse 7, in translation transparency (being able to discern the underlying text) seems also to have been a goal of Christ, his words (translation words) are God's words (underlying words inspired by God.)

 

John 17:9:

9. I ask for them; I do not ask for the world but for those who You have given to Me, because they are Yours. (JOJ)

9. I pray for them. I don’t pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. (WEB)​

Here as we search for meaning as presented in His inspired words, we have several choices. Are we asking for them or praying for them. Pray seems a stretch but ask seems a little weak. Beseech works well but is a tad archaic. Beg I think goes too far, and entreat again is archaic. So “ask” it is.

Next do we substitute the antecedent (disciples) for the pronoun (them)? I think substitution is best, but would footnote lit. them.

Next we have “world” referring to fallen mankind, but since the meaning (mankind) is clear because of context, we will stick with world.

Next, we will omit “who/whom” as extraneous and possibly diverting from the message.

Finally we have a bit of a conundrum, if the disciples have been given to Jesus, how can they still belong to the Father? I think rather than ownership, the idea is that the Father in giving them commissioned them for His purpose.

Putting it all together: I ask for these disciples, and not for the world, but for these you have given Me, because they are your chosen ones.