Amen. Hit the nail.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
A Smaller Church
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
- Start date
- Status
Amen. Hit the nail.
Amen again. :jesus:
YES he really did didn't he! Praise God:thumbs:
3000 were saved. I am not sure there was a church, as we know church, at that time. I have no idea about the 100,000. But I am not talking about the past, but the present in our culture.
No, I am not condemning them at all. What I feel is that we need close, loving relationships ... i.e. brothers and sisters we know and love ... in our society. That is very lacking in our culture IMHO. A big church cannot supply that unless they have many, many small groups meeting in homes and at the church.
For me I do not want to be a part of a church that is large enough that I am unknown by many and where I really do not know everyone well. The church I go to is small, but it is family. The church I go to is small and yet is well known by various groups in the US, praised by some -- condemned by some, and in a variety of foreign countries. Though small we have had members work alone and in pairs in places such as Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, South Africa and in various places in Europe. We have a mission trip to a poor community in West Virginia annually where a Vacation Bible School is held and various construction projects, such as putting a new roof on a home, completing needed house repairs, etc. are done. This began with two churches and has gradually grown and a number of churches from various states join us in this effort.
We are a lay led church. We hold to the belief that all Christians are ministers, each according to the gifts they have been given. We are a diverse group geographically, racially, economically, educationally ... but we are family and we do love one another and welcome all who come through our door. All the pastor we have had welcome the help they receive in this small lay led church. We all are co-workers for the Lord.
Last edited by a moderator:
The past applies to the present. We can't be quick to condemn it but must learn from it. Later on because of the famine in Jerusalem, Paul's travels took him to different churches such as Corinth and through Macedonia with one of the purposes of raising up funds for the poor of the church in Jerusalem.
But that is simply opinion. It is also preference. If you had stated it as fact you would be condemning most of the Baptist churches (90% or more) who believe they are very Biblical in their polity.
Again, this is preference. It has no Biblical precedent.
Second, if stated as conviction or fact, it would be condemnation of early churches such as Jerusalem and Antioch as well as most churches today, all of which cannot be wrong.
I am not against small churches. I belong to one. But I cannot condemn wholesale those that are larger. It is not Biblical to do so.
Praise the Lord for such efforts.
If I understand you right I am against that principle. It even goes against what Paul was describing in 1Cor.11 where everyone had their own gift, and as members of that particular body were to use them. In the same passage he rebuked the members saying that not all could be the head of the body. There was only one head. There was only one pastor. (Larger churches had a plurality of pastors). But there was always one who was the head. One can only lead a church as far as he himself can go. If he only has a cursory knowledge of the Bible his people are not going to be well taught. The pastor needs to have a thorough knowledge of the Bible, preferably a college or seminary education, depending on the country in which he resides. Not everyone is a C.H. Spurgeon.
I know of a man and his family, who with the help of one or two other families began a church about fifty years ago. He was diligent and hard working. Today he is retired. But today that church runs between 900 and a thousand. For the most part the people seem to know each other fairly well. I have visited the church often. They all know who I am, and I feel very welcome and at home there. How could I condemn such a church based on your ideas on what a church should be?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Yes indeed, exactly what I was thinking as I read the post. The view that the pastor is the head of the church is in no way Baptist.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Paul teaches a bit about headship here.
The head of the man is Christ.
The head of the church is the pastor and he is accountable to God.
You need to read 1Timothy chapter 3. Do you think that there might be a reason the Lord had Paul write down the qualifications for pastors and deacons?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
You accuse me of name calling, simply by saying you hold to Protestant beliefs, not Baptist? Who brought the word "cult" into the conversation?
I have given scripture, Baptist history and principles, something you haven't done. I'm still waiting for you to prove by scripture that administration of the ordinances was restricted to and the exclusive right of pastors. You cannot. You lose.
It's no skin off my nose if you want to cling to a non-Baptist view of pastoral mediation between a believer and God, thus denying the priesthood of the believer. But please don't pretend this is a Baptist position.
To deny the ordinances to believers unless there is a pastor present fits perfectly with state church Protestantism, and prelacy.
Perhaps you should enroll in a course concerning classic Baptist principles.
I have posted Scripture three times now. Not once have you answered it. Do you have a reason for that?
Yet I have not seen Scripture posted by you. You simply posted some out-dated document that you think is relevant for today. It isn't.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
The scripture you have posted does not affirm that only pastors may administer the ordinances. I'm still waiting for you to post scripture that actually backs up your position. Of course you know and I know you cannot because there is no such scripture.
I have referenced scripture, and there is scripture within the Helwys confession; it references the priesthood of believers, a principle you deny. I have seen you defend other confessions, but you poo-poo this one which just happens to be the first Baptist confession of faith. It is therefore relevant, for today and every age, especially as it puts forth a basic Baptist principle that has been held ever since. Yet you deny it and instead uphold a principle antithetical to the very foundation of Baptists, putting in its place a position that requires a clerical mediator between believers and God without which they may not partake of the ordinances. That is non-Baptist and anti-Baptist. You lose.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
OK, DHK, instead of this apparently useless back and forth, tell me what kind of Baptist you are. Then maybe I can understand where you are coming from. Are you a Landmarker, for instance?
If I post Scripture for you this fourth time will you be honest enough to answer it.
Secondly, I care not for some man's confession. I can refer you to many Baptists websites to show where you are wrong. It is in dispute whether Helwys was actually a Baptist.
Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
--In every church that Paul started (over 100) he appointed elders or pastors. The elder is the overseer of the church (1Tim.3ff). He has oversight of all that is done in the church and that would include overseeing the Lord's Table and baptism.
Q. Did Paul write out the qualifications for a bishop and deacon for naught?
What was their purpose?
To whom does he address many of his letters:
Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
And of course there are the pastoral epistles: Titus and Timothy, pastors, to whom he also writes. The fact is that every epistle he writes he writes to a local church or the pastor of a local church.
What happens in Acts chapter 20?
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--He calls together the pastors of this church and gives them encouragement and advice. Apparently Ephesus was another large church. As the verse indicates it had a plurality of pastors, of whom Timothy was the most senior.
Paul spent a year and a half in Corinth. Study Acts 18. And when he left he left in charge Apollos, who then became the pastor of the church after him. It was at that time that he wrote to the church his first letter, and numerous times he uses the expression: "when you come together." The word church is translated from the Greek "ekklesia" which means "assembly." When the church assembled together, they were to take disciplinary action on erring members (1Cor.5ff). When the church assembled together they were to celebrate the Lord's Supper in an orderly manner (1Cor.11). This was all done under the supervision of Apollos, the overseer of the church. It was not done at random.
God is a God of order, and not of confusion. He had just finished teaching them those principles in the first half of chapter 11. Why would he contradict himself in the latter half of the chapter? It is no coincidence that in the same chapter as the Lord's Supper one finds this verse:
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
--headship, order.
Again, Apollos is the pastor of the church. In the very next chapter we see others that were envious of that position.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
--The Corinthian church, according to 1:7 were not lacking in any spiritual gift. They had them all. We see here there were gifts of administration. Some had the gift to administer the church but not all.
1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
--Some desired other positions in the church. They didn't want to be "the foot" or use the gift that God had given them. They desired other gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
--He is rebuking those who want to be the head.
--This was a divisive and carnal church where Paul had to address many problems.
I don't deny it. You seem ignorant as to what it is.
The priesthood of the believer is the privilege every believer has to enter into the presence of the Lord without going through another mediator. It has nothing to do with the ordinances. This is a red herring. In fact it is non sequitor to this debate and subject. You are totally confused. It has as much to do with this subject as being the CEO of Microsoft. You have never explained yourself yet.
I have given you Scripture here on various posts. You have never answered them. What has the administration of the Lord's Supper have to do with priesthood of the believer? Please explain?
The local church calls a pastor. The pastor oversees the ordinances of the church. The only relationship of the priesthood of the believer here is: in his relationship to God whether or not there is something prohibiting him from partaking from the elements. Maybe he still has unconfessed sin. That is between him and God. That is where the priesthood believer comes in. You confess your sin to God not to man (1John 1:9).
You are confusing me with someone else. I don't defend confessions of faith. The Bible is my authority all the time.
What Baptist principle?
I don't lose anything. It is a shame that you put your trust in a dusty old piece of paper rather than the Bible. That is truly sad.
In the Book of Revelation Jesus wrote to seven pastors of seven churches. He wrote the pastors. I find that significant. He is the Word. He didn't quote from Helwys.
BTW, I don't like the word clergy and rather not use it. It is your word not mine. The local church has pastors. That is why we say that Paul wrote "Pastoral Epistles," that gave instructions to the pastors of the churches. I find it odd that you ignore such instructions.
Every list of Baptist Distinctives I have ever come across states that the ordinances of the church are given to the local church.
In fact when I was doing some research on another topic yesterday I came across the statements of faith of a Community Bible Church and of a Pentecostal Church and their statements of faith said the same thing: the two ordinances that Christ has given (baptism and the Lord's Table) have been given to the local church.
Now since local churches have pastors and pastors are overseers, it is only right to assume that the pastors oversee the conducting of these ordinances. Do you not agree with that. Or do you relegate your pastor to the position of janitor and leave him there as the last person out of the church to do all the clean up? Yeah, I can see that.
1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
--As Christ is the chief Shepherd, the pastor is the undershepherd. He has oversight over the flock.
Now let's go back Acts 20:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
The word for elders is presbuteros, the word for presbytery. It is a function of the pastor, a word that is often used for the pastor of the church.
--He calls the pastors of the church of Ephesus together.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
He uses the word "overseers" here.
This is the same Greek word translated in 1Tim.3:1 for "bishop." The bishop or pastor is the overseer of the church.
Secondly he has the obligation of feeding the flock of God. As Peter said that is the position of the shepherd, or it is pastoring. He is the pastor, bishop or overseer (episkopos), elder, all the terms used in these two verses to describe the same office.
The pastor has oversight of the church.
Yes, that is what I was demonstrating through Acts 20:17,28. They are different terms for the same office, or different functions of the same office. At least they should be. Certain denominations have abused the terms, such as the RCC and Anglicans who have put more importance on bishop then pastor or elder. But the Bible doesn't teach that.
A biblical definition of Church isn't how many together. Church is made up of individuals "ecclesia" ... those "called-out". So saying you cannot have "church" with only two or three your technically right for redemmed people ARE the church. Two or three gathered together can have some wonderfull fellowship and the spirit of the Lord can be in their midst.....who wants to bash that from being called "having church"?:type:
Thomas Helwys
New Member
You are funny, and pathetic. You slander Helwys, the first English Baptist who established the first Baptist church on English soil, produced the first English Baptist confession, and died in prison at forty for his Baptist beliefs; yes, you slander him because his upholding of Baptist principles shoots down your non-Baptist baloney. You dodge the issue by throwing out accusations like "You are totally confused", as if by your saying it that makes it so. That, plus you are not honest. Despite your tome of a post, and all the scriptures you post, you still evade the central issue: Not one verse that you have referenced limits administration of the ordinances to the pastor or makes this the exclusive right of the pastor. In Helwys' confession, in the relevant section on this, he references the scripture that teaches the priesthood of believers, showing that Baptists have never believed that the ordinances need to be mediated to believers by pastors or a special clergy class. By holding your position, you have removed yourself from traditional Baptist principles.
Scripture supports me, Helwys, and the Baptist position on this; it refutes you. Priesthood of the believer destroys your claim that only the pastor may mediate the ordinances to believers.
And you can snidely and dishonestly throw an insult that we denigrate the pastor and relegate him to janitor status, but I've noticed that when you are cornered and defeated, you reach down into the dirt to come up with a reply. I'll remind you again of your spitting out the word "cult". Truth is, we do not denigrate the position of the pastor by elevating the status of other believers who are not pastors; all are spiritually equal, as all are priests before God with equal rights and privileges, and no special clergy class with mediator authority is necessary or desired. All believers as priests have equal access to and rights to administer the ordinances, with or without pastors or clergy. That has been the traditional Baptist belief, principle, and practice right from the beginning, based on scripture. Deny it all you want; it does not change the facts, but the more you deny it, the further you remove yourself from Baptist foundations.
So, again, scripture refutes you. Nowhere does it limit administration of the ordinances to pastors or say that such administration is the exclusive right of pastors or a special clergy class. Believers do not need pastors to mediate the ordinances to them. As priests, all believers have the right to administer the ordinances or to approach God directly in any and every way, no clergy required, no mediator required. That is the scriptural teaching.
I suggest that you study Baptist history and theology as you are obviously ignorant and uninformed of the facts. And while you're at it, keep digging to find any scripture that supports your position that the ordinances must be administered exclusively by pastors or clergy. The only way you'll find it is if you write it in yourself. I'll point out that there is precedent for that.
Really? I have never seen you post any yet.
- Status