A Smaller Church

[Thomas Helwys]

Because a church is not 2 or 3 believers gathering for worship.

Tell me the characteristics of churches in the Bible - even the home churches. Was there organization? Was there leadership? What was the purpose of their gathering? Was it only to sing a few songs? Study some of the New Testament from Acts on and you'll see that 2 or 3 gathered for worship was not anywhere near a New Testament church.

If the Gospel is being presented, it is a church. No clergy is required. If a baptism is necessary, anyone can do that. When the Lord's supper is served, anyone can do that. No clergy necessary or required, period. Helwys affirmed that in the first Baptist confession.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Well there are no churches near me but apostate ones so.....:smilewinkgrin:

So, if you are married, you have the nucleus of a church. You can be the pastor. You have a church, so get going.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

1st who said that worship in a home is casual.....it's worship & if church is like a business then tax it like its a business. Lastly, who said a small meeting cant be an organized meeting? Next you will be telling me it HAS TO BE an IFB Church & everyone HAS TO wear a suit or a dress!

:laugh: :thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

I'm growing less and less fond of large churches. My church is at 400 or so and I'm thinking it is becoming too big. We started out at 100, 130. I thought this size was ideal. The problem I have with most local churches today is the fact they are run more like businesses. When more people come, more people give. What do we do with the money? We hire additional staff, upgrade equipment, buy larger properties, etc. When a family in need arises in the church the church asks for volunteers to help the family as the budget is full due to salaries and facilities. Is this the way Jesus designed the church? I hardly doubt it. I'm seriously beginning to think the great falling away is this corporate mindset of the local church. I'm so sick of it, I cannot be a cheerful giver of my resources, and its something I'm struggling with. When I see the pie chart of budget and 70% is shaded in for salaries, 25% facilities and 5% discipleship and ministries (not factual numbers, just for reference) I see something majorly wrong.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm growing less and less fond of large churches. My church is at 400 or so and I'm thinking it is becoming too big. We started out at 100, 130. I thought this size was ideal. The problem I have with most local churches today is the fact they are run more like businesses. When more people come, more people give. What do we do with the money? We hire additional staff, upgrade equipment, buy larger properties, etc. When a family in need arises in the church the church asks for volunteers to help the family as the budget is full due to salaries and facilities. Is this the way Jesus designed the church? I hardly doubt it. I'm seriously beginning to think the great falling away is this corporate mindset of the local church. I'm so sick of it, I cannot be a cheerful giver of my resources, and its something I'm struggling with. When I see the pie chart of budget and 70% is shaded in for salaries, 25% facilities and 5% discipleship and ministries (not factual numbers, just for reference) I see something majorly wrong.

Yes, I understand. See I am trying to do something in the home front community & attempting (with Gods help) to build a real church here..... you probably have heard my story & my complaints about the community not having a real bible believing church. so bottom line, it has to start small. I do have a connection with a Baptist church in Kentucky where I often get advise & council & more importantly prayer.

Web, we have had our differences & our arguments but always considered you a brother.... I will pray for you in seeking Gods path for you.

Blessings

as a sidenote the church in KY has a budget of $10 K per year for operating & maintenance....the pastor works as a teacher in a local school & draws no salary....yet they are fully Christian people who love one another & worship God in humility.

 

[Amy.G]

EWF, how about starting out with a Bible study in your home and see what happens? I have heard of churches starting that way. Just a thought.

 

[Crabtownboy]

EWF, how about starting out with a Bible study in your home and see what happens? I have heard of churches starting that way. Just a thought.

That is how the church I am a member of began.

I do not believe I could be comfortable in a church that had 100 or more members. People in such churches do not know each other well enough and cannot be family as is possible in a small church.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

That is how the church I am a member of began.

I do not believe I could be comfortable in a church that had 100 or more members. People in such churches do not know each other well enough and cannot be family as is possible in a small church.

I am of the same sentiment as you on this.

I love small churches.

 

[DHK]

If the Gospel is being presented, it is a church. No clergy is required. If a baptism is necessary, anyone can do that. When the Lord's supper is served, anyone can do that. No clergy necessary or required, period. Helwys affirmed that in the first Baptist confession.

I can present the gospel to my family in family devotions; that doesn't make it a church. It is shameful for some of you to so disregard or even disrespect God's ordained institution for this age.
I have always been a member of a church of less than a hundred, and am well acquainted with small churches and the problems they face. But they still have structure, organization, purpose, and are defined according to Biblical precept.

Not just anyone can baptize.
Not just anyone can oversee the Lord's Supper.

These are the two ordinances that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the local church to be remembered until he comes. Read 1Cor.11.

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
--When YE (the church at Corinth) come together...
Then Paul goes on to give instructions about how to conduct the Lord's Supper. It was an ordinance given to the local church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can present the gospel to my family in family devotions; that doesn't make it a church. It is shameful for some of you to so disregard or even disrespect God's ordained institution for this age.
I have always been a member of a church of less than a hundred, and am well acquainted with small churches and the problems they face. But they still have structure, organization, purpose, and are defined according to Biblical precept.

Not just anyone can baptize.
Not just anyone can oversee the Lord's Supper.

These are the two ordinances that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the local church to be remembered until he comes. Read 1Cor.11.

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
--When YE (the church at Corinth) come together...
Then Paul goes on to give instructions about how to conduct the Lord's Supper. It was an ordinance given to the local church.

Then back to the hard condition of having no biblical churches in my area. Do I compromise and go to a Lutheran or a Dutch Reformed Church....please advise.

Maybe I should try the Mega United Methodist (you know, give us your heart, your mind & your wallets) or the myriad of PCUSA's that dot the landscape. What price is going to church vs worship?

 

[webdog]

I can present the gospel to my family in family devotions; that doesn't make it a church. It is shameful for some of you to so disregard or even disrespect God's ordained institution for this age.
I have always been a member of a church of less than a hundred, and am well acquainted with small churches and the problems they face. But they still have structure, organization, purpose, and are defined according to Biblical precept.

Unwarranted charges. It is a false dichotomy to state churches under 20 members do not have leadership, organization, structure and purpose. I've seen house churches grow and in turn plant further churches that grow disciples.

Not just anyone can baptize.
Not just anyone can oversee the Lord's Supper.

That's been debated.

These are the two ordinances that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the local church to be remembered until he comes. Read 1Cor.11.

Actually both were given to believers that make up local churches. The Lord's Supper was given first to His disciples, as was the command to go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit'

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
--When YE (the church at Corinth) come together...
Then Paul goes on to give instructions about how to conduct the Lord's Supper. It was an ordinance given to the local church.

In context it is a rebuke for observance in an unworthy manner, not a command who can administer it.

 

[DHK]

Then back to the hard condition of having no biblical churches in my area. Do I compromise and go to a Lutheran or a Dutch Reformed Church....please advise.

Brother I don't know your exact situation. You have to do what the Lord directs you to do. Here are some situations I have been in:
First, when I was a young Christian, still unmarried, I had a career that left me totally isolated from any local church. I eventually left and relocated. But I was young and single. I was able to do that.
Second, I look at where I am now. I am married with grown children that have children of their own. I have a ministry among senior citizens. Some of those people never see daylight (unless it comes through their window). They are unable to go to a church of any kind. Because of their condition, they must stay there at an extended long term care facility. Before I went there the only other "clergy" that went there was Catholic and one other liberal Protestant. Now we hold services every week, but I can't call it a church. At least they get the gospel and teaching of the Word (those that want it).
We have another poster on this board. I haven't seen him for awhile. He is a Baptist, retired, older, and lives quite some distance from any Baptist Church. He attends an Anglican Church. Personally, coming from a Catholic background, I could never swallow that. But he says he is fed there. It is the only church in the area, and apparently the minister does teach the Word.
We do what we have to do, as the Lord directs us.

 

[DHK]

Unwarranted charges. It is a false dichotomy to state churches under 20 members do not have leadership, organization, structure and purpose. I've seen house churches grow and in turn plant further churches that grow disciples.

It seems you haven't been following this thread. Go and read it from the beginning. I already stated that the church I attend started from a house, and gave examples of churches in the Bible that started from houses. You are barking up a tree.

That's been debated.

And so?

Actually both were given to believers that make up local churches.

Is this new revelation to you? Individuals make up churches.

The Lord's Supper was given first to His disciples, as was the command to go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit'

Yes, by Jesus. Are you Jesus? Paul spent three years in Arabia with Jesus receiving direct revelation from him. He knew every detail of what went on in the upper room by divine revelation. He quotes the words of Jesus though he himself was not there. He gives instructions on how the Lord's Table should be conducted.
Jesus conducted it.
The church is to celebrate it.

In context it is a rebuke for observance in an unworthy manner, not a command who can administer it.

The rebuke was for the love feast that they had before the celebration of the Lord's Supper. That verse is the beginning of the instructions for celebrating the Lord's Table.

 

[webdog]

It seems you haven't been following this thread. Go and read it from the beginning. I already stated that the church I attend started from a house, and gave examples of churches in the Bible that started from houses. You are barking up a tree.

I did read it. What is your charge of disrespect founded on then?

And so?

So nothing, just pointing out your view is not infallible.

Is this new revelation to you? Individuals make up churches.

I hope you reread what you just said here.

Yes, by Jesus. Are you Jesus? Paul spent three years in Arabia with Jesus receiving direct revelation from him. He knew every detail of what went on in the upper room by divine revelation. He quotes the words of Jesus though he himself was not there. He gives instructions on how the Lord's Table should be conducted.
Jesus conducted it.
The church is to celebrate it.

I'm not Jesus, but a disciple Jesus gave the command to by extension. Your entire Paul scenario is a complete non sequitur. None of us were thrown off a horse either.

The rebuke was for the love feast that they had before the celebration of the Lord's Supper. That verse is the beginning of the instructions for celebrating the Lord's Table.

...in a worthy manner, not WHO was permitted to administer it.

 

[DHK]

...in a worthy manner, not WHO was permitted to administer it.

"When you come together.."
It was given to the church. The church has structure and authority.
Now go and read the Pastoral epistles. Read the qualifications that Paul set down for a "bishop" the overseer of the church. It is not anyone that can administer the elements. The pastor oversees it, as he oversees all things. The church may have a congregational government, but the ordinances are given to the local church which has a pastor. As bishop (overseer), he directs what happens in the assembly.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I can present the gospel to my family in family devotions; that doesn't make it a church. It is shameful for some of you to so disregard or even disrespect God's ordained institution for this age.
I have always been a member of a church of less than a hundred, and am well acquainted with small churches and the problems they face. But they still have structure, organization, purpose, and are defined according to Biblical precept.

Not just anyone can baptize.
Not just anyone can oversee the Lord's Supper.

These are the two ordinances that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to the local church to be remembered until he comes. Read 1Cor.11.

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
--When YE (the church at Corinth) come together...
Then Paul goes on to give instructions about how to conduct the Lord's Supper. It was an ordinance given to the local church.

So, you don't hold to the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer? That's not Baptist.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Unwarranted charges. It is a false dichotomy to state churches under 20 members do not have leadership, organization, structure and purpose. I've seen house churches grow and in turn plant further churches that grow disciples.

That's been debated.
Actually both were given to believers that make up local churches. The Lord's Supper was given first to His disciples, as was the command to go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit'

In context it is a rebuke for observance in an unworthy manner, not a command who can administer it.

I appreciate your factual post.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

"When you come together.."
It was given to the church. The church has structure and authority.
Now go and read the Pastoral epistles. Read the qualifications that Paul set down for a "bishop" the overseer of the church. It is not anyone that can administer the elements. The pastor oversees it, as he oversees all things. The church may have a congregational government, but the ordinances are given to the local church which has a pastor. As bishop (overseer), he directs what happens in the assembly.

Here is the Baptist position, from the first English Baptist confession, by Thomas Helwys:

"11. That though in respect of CHRIST, the Church is one (Ephesians 4:4) yet it consists of diverse particular congregations, even so many as there will be in the World, every congregation, though they are but two or three, have CHRIST given them, with all the means of their salvation (Matthew 18:20 ; Romans 8:32; 1 Corinthians 3:22). They are the Body of CHRIST
(1 Corinthians 12:27) and a whole Church (1 Corinthians 14:23). And therefore may, and should, when they come together, to Pray, Prophecy, break bread, and administer in all the holy ordinances, although as yet they have no Officers, or that their Officers should be in Prison, sick, or by any other means hindered from the Church (1 Peter 4:10 and 2:5)."

 

[annsni]

If the Gospel is being presented, it is a church. No clergy is required. If a baptism is necessary, anyone can do that. When the Lord's supper is served, anyone can do that. No clergy necessary or required, period. Helwys affirmed that in the first Baptist confession.

Can you show me in Scripture where a church in the New Testament has no clergy?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Can you show me in Scripture where a church in the New Testament has no clergy?

Can you show me in scripture where every church had clergy? This artificial clergy/laity divide denies a core Baptist doctrine and a scriptural one: the priesthood of the believer.

Seems like some are not as Baptist as they claim, either that. or they need a lesson in Baptist history and theology.

For those "Baptists" who think a pastor is necessary for the administration of the ordinances, you have departed from historic Baptist and scriptural teaching.