A sticky situation...

[jshurley04]

So in your view, God views women as nothing more than seervants and not capable of leadership. How sad.

Paul could only refer to worship services because that was his only context of writing the passage, unless Sunday School actually existed in the 1st century.

How is a woman that teaches Sunday School unscriptural? That is the question, no one questions that a woman is not to be in charge of the church i.e. pastor, this is a question of service. Following your logic would mean that a woman should never sing in front of the church during a service, or play an instrument as part of the service or even be a part of the choir.

I don't believe that God would have us to be so ignorant that we cannot do a background study of the context to discover the issues that Paul is speaking of when he writes. It is in the background studies that we find what is going on in the church and how they do church then. Why is that invalid and wrong, it is part of the proper understanding of the text. If you had been a pastor when Paul wrote a letter to you addressing things going on in your church or even answering questions that you had posed to him. You would properly understand the context of Paul's message. However, as a pastor almost 2000 yrs later, we cannot know the total context without doing the background study. We cannot interpret the scriptures in a vacuum, it must also be understood in the context of the background of the situation that it was written in.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So in your view, God views women as nothing more than seervants and not capable of leadership.

No, of course not, silly ... ... God views women exactly as he said he did ... as a "helper suitable" to their husbands who are of equal spiritual standing in Christ. The issue is not how "God views women," but rather what roles God created men and women for. You can pound a nail with a shoe, but that doesn't work very well and beats up the shoe. It just wasn't created for that. The same is true with roles in life. When you live life as God created it to be lived, things work better. Yes, you can do it differently, but that is painful for all involved.

Paul could only refer to worship services because that was his only context of writing the passage, unless Sunday School actually existed in the 1st century.

Paul was referring to life in the church, not just worship services. He never mentions that. You have added that in, to try to limit what the word says.

How is a woman that teaches Sunday School unscriptural?

Because she is "having authority over and teaching a man." That is a direct explicit violation of what God said.

Following your logic would mean that a woman should never sing in front of the church during a service, or play an instrument as part of the service or even be a part of the choir.

How would that follow? Those are different issues. Bad logic makes for bad arguments.

I don't believe that God would have us to be so ignorant that we cannot do a background study of the context to discover the issues that Paul is speaking of when he writes.

I don't either. Because I hvae done the background study, and exegeted the text, I can conclude that you are incorrect. I could not do that unless I had done the study.

The fact still remains that Paul's reasons have nothing to do with teh first century. If you are correct, we would not expect to see reason's about creation and the fall. Those are unchanging reasons, and lead us to conclude that it is an unchanging command. If Paul had simply been giving a first century command, he would have used first century reasons, or no reasons at all.

 

[jshurley04]

So a wife is to never lead her lost husband to Christ because that violates scripture?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Please tell me you are not serious ...

 

[jshurley04]

That is the reality of your position.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No it's not, not even close. Why do you jump to an illogical extreme?

 

[ScottEmerson]

What about a wife who is mature in the faith teaching her newly-believing husband? Is this allowed by Scripture? Yes or no? Why or why not?

 

[ScottEmerson]

And, why is it that we as Baptists have no problem sending female missionaries across the world (e.g. Lottie Moon), but we won't let them teach Sunday School in our own churches?

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
And, why is it that we as Baptists have no problem sending female missionaries across the world (e.g. Lottie Moon), but we won't let them teach Sunday School in our own churches?

In her day, Lottie Moon did encounter some opposition.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by StefanM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
And, why is it that we as Baptists have no problem sending female missionaries across the world (e.g. Lottie Moon), but we won't let them teach Sunday School in our own churches?

In her day, Lottie Moon did encounter some opposition. </font>[/QUOTE]But do we as Southern Baptists advocate such a move by even labeling it the "Lottie Moon Christmas Offering?"

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StefanM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
And, why is it that we as Baptists have no problem sending female missionaries across the world (e.g. Lottie Moon), but we won't let them teach Sunday School in our own churches?

In her day, Lottie Moon did encounter some opposition. </font>[/QUOTE]But do we as Southern Baptists advocate such a move by even labeling it the "Lottie Moon Christmas Offering?" </font>[/QUOTE]We most certainly do!

 

[Pastor Larry]

What about a wife who is mature in the faith teaching her newly-believing husband? Is this allowed by Scripture? Yes or no? Why or why not?

1 Tim 2 addresses the church, not the home. Secondly, I would never counsel a mature women to marry an immature man. They are not a match in most cases. The answer to this is for the man to be discipled and mature so he can lead his home. But marriage is a mutual relationship where both grow from each other.

And, why is it that we as Baptists have no problem sending female missionaries across the world (e.g. Lottie Moon), but we won't let them teach Sunday School in our own churches?

"We" Baptists don't all do that. Again, it is not something I would recommend, but it depends on waht she is going to do. There are many roles in the church that can be filled by women. Teaching men and having authority is simply not one of them. It strikes me that if we just listened to Scripture and followed it, we would have all these issues. What is so wrong what not allowing women to "have authority or teach men"? I don't get the hang up you guys have. It is like you don't accept the equality of womanhood and so you have to rig an artificial way for her to be "equal."

 

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What about a wife who is mature in the faith teaching her newly-believing husband? Is this allowed by Scripture? Yes or no? Why or why not?

1 Tim 2 addresses the church, not the home. Secondly, I would never counsel a mature women to marry an immature man. They are not a match in most cases. The answer to this is for the man to be discipled and mature so he can lead his home. But marriage is a mutual relationship where both grow from each other.

And, why is it that we as Baptists have no problem sending female missionaries across the world (e.g. Lottie Moon), but we won't let them teach Sunday School in our own churches?

"We" Baptists don't all do that. Again, it is not something I would recommend, but it depends on waht she is going to do. There are many roles in the church that can be filled by women. Teaching men and having authority is simply not one of them. It strikes me that if we just listened to Scripture and followed it, we would have all these issues. What is so wrong what not allowing women to "have authority or teach men"? I don't get the hang up you guys have. It is like you don't accept the equality of womanhood and so you have to rig an artificial way for her to be "equal." </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with Pastor Larry on - well - everything. I did want to mention I think we have single women doing way too much in the area of mission work. Again, as Pastor Larry says, it depends what the woman is doing, but I see a trend of missionaries who are having young women serve as "missionaries", coming to live in their homes and helping with the education of their children and in the church Sunday School. I think these situations are just asking for big trouble. I think the woman needs to be living on her own and in some countries, that just won't work, or she can't raise enough support.

 

[guitarpreacher]

Reading this thread I see a picture of a river full of drowning people, and a group on the bank arguing about who's qualified to throw out the life preserver.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
1 Tim 2 addresses the church, not the home.

Does this include worship services or merely church in general? Would you say, then, that a woman could lead, say, 10 couples in a small-group Bible study in her home? Where would you choose to draw the line?

Secondly, I would never counsel a mature women to marry an immature man. They are not a match in most cases.

I absolutely agree. But we do know (and I know couples now), where the couple were both unsaved. She came to Christ and decided to stay with him, and he eventually came to know Christ. She ended up much more mature in the faith than him.

The answer to this is for the man to be discipled and mature so he can lead his home. But marriage is a mutual relationship where both grow from each other.

But in the case where this isn't possible, can the woman help lead her husband in this area?

"We" Baptists don't all do that.

You are in the far minority, according to the number of single women who are being sent around the world by the IMB and NAMB.

I don't get the hang up you guys have. It is like you don't accept the equality of womanhood and so you have to rig an artificial way for her to be "equal."

Because Scripture seems to indicate that in the early church women were encouraged to pray and prophecy in the worship services (I Cor. 11). Christ sent women out to do ministry. Paul commends women as partners in ministry. Maybe, just maybe, we as a church have denied women the opportunity to do that which God has called them to do. Anne Graham Lotz and Beth Moore have shown some amazing fruits in their ministries as they minister to both men and women.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Reading this thread I see a picture of a river full of drowning people, and a group on the bank arguing about who's qualified to throw out the life preserver.

I don't see that at all. I see that God has told us who should lead the church and teach, and people are arguing about whether or not we should obey.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Does this include worship services or merely church in general? Would you say, then, that a woman could lead, say, 10 couples in a small-group Bible study in her home? Where would you choose to draw the line?

It is the church, worship services included. I would draw the line at the place where a woman has authority or teaches a man in the church body.

But in the case where this isn't possible, can the woman help lead her husband in this area?

Spiritual growth should be mutual. I guess I don't see the dichotomy here.

Because Scripture seems to indicate that in the early church women were encouraged to pray and prophecy in the worship services (I Cor. 11). Christ sent women out to do ministry. Paul commends women as partners in ministry. Maybe, just maybe, we as a church have denied women the opportunity to do that which God has called them to do. Anne Graham Lotz and Beth Moore have shown some amazing fruits in their ministries as they minister to both men and women.

I have seen no real fruit from Anne Graham Lotz or Beth Moore or any other woman that could not be obtained by obedience to God in this area. There are many ministries that women are uniquely qualified for. I don't think obedience to God in this area will ever result in a woman being disqualified from something God called her to do. I don't think God would call a woman to disobedience.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
[qb]Does this include worship services or merely church in general? Would you say, then, that a woman could lead, say, 10 couples in a small-group Bible study in her home? Where would you choose to draw the line?

It is the church, worship services included. I would draw the line at the place where a woman has authority or teaches a man in the church body. </font>[/QUOTE]So you would agree that a woman can teach doctrinal truths tomen at her home but not within the walls of the church?

Spiritual growth should be mutual. I guess I don't see the dichotomy here.

"I'm having trouble understanding just how God could love me even though I've done so many bad things," said Mr. J. Mrs. J begins to explain to Mr. J (the new Christian) the doctrine of grace. Is Mrs. J sinning?

I have seen no real fruit from Anne Graham Lotz or Beth Moore or any other woman that could not be obtained by obedience to God in this area. There are many ministries that women are uniquely qualified for. I don't think obedience to God in this area will ever result in a woman being disqualified from something God called her to do. I don't think God would call a woman to disobedience.

Perhaps God has called them, and you've missed the mark on this doctrinal issue. Would you not agree that a number of Godly, well-learned people disagree with you on this area?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
So you would agree that a woman can teach doctrinal truths tomen at her home but not within the walls of the church?

To some degree. In the home, there should be a mutual learning and spiritual growth going on. But that is not addressed by 1 Tim.

Perhaps God has called them, and you've missed the mark on this doctrinal issue. Would you not agree that a number of Godly, well-learned people disagree with you on this area?

I am not sure I agree with that. I am not sure how "well-learned" can be defined in such a way, or how "godly" can include disobedience in such a matter. I don't doubt their motives, but motives aren't really the issue. The issue that the text is very clear. The exact application outside of the church can be debated perhaps, such as the home. But in the church, 1 Tim 2 is pretty explicit, and I can't find any basis for a cultural argument. Paul is too clear in his reasons. So, personally, I am not sure I could include them in that. And that doesn't dispute their contributions in other areas. So that is a tough question to answer for me, anyway.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
But in the church, 1 Tim 2 is pretty explicit, and I can't find any basis for a cultural argument.

You know as well as I do that there are many who do find basis for a cultural argument. I believe that Piper is one of them.

Question to clarify: So a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men at a church is wrong, but a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men half a block away at the local coffee shop is okay?