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A sticky situation...

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Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
You know as well as I do that there are many who do find basis for a cultural argument. I believe that Piper is one of them.
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I know there are many who find cultural basis. The question, as I recall, was whether or not they were "well learned" on that issue. I struggled with that question, and gave it a lot of thought before answering. I am not sure I can agree that they are "well learned" when they ignore the reasons the text gives, reasons that are obviously and decidedly not cultural reasons. If Paul had intended it to be a cultural issue, he could have used cultural reasons. He instead used creation reasons, and the reasons he uses are still true today.

I am not sure what Piper thinks. I believe he doesn't take the complementarian position, but I am not sure.

Question to clarify: So a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men at a church is wrong, but a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men half a block away at the local coffee shop is okay?
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No, I don't think so.
 
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hamricba

New Member
Quote:

Question to clarify: So a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men at a church is wrong, but a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men half a block away at the local coffee shop is okay?


10 believing men at a coffee shop IS a church. The church is not a building, but the gathering of believers- anywhere.
 
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jshurley04

New Member
Originally posted by hamricba:
Quote:

Question to clarify: So a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men at a church is wrong, but a woman teaching doctrine to 10 men half a block away at the local coffee shop is okay?


10 believing men at a coffee shop IS a church. The church is not a building, but the gathering of believers- anywhere.
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No, that is not correct. The church is a called out assembly of people working with common goal to fulfill the commission given to us by Christ. 10 men in a coffee shop are just 10 men in a coffee shop, they do not qualify as a church. One of the distinct features of a church is that they are self governing. 10 men in a coffee shop have no need of self government and most likely would never consider themselves a church or subject themselves to a group government.

For those of you who define teaching as a position of authority, have at it. I simply disagree with that definition of authority. I would never hope to change your church's position on that point. I do enjoy the debate and this discussion has caused me to study somethings that I have simply read over in times past.
 
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Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
If you don't consider teaching a position of authority, then what is the teacher doing? I don't want to prolong this ... and wasn't going to post ... but I just don't get it. The job of the teacher of the Bible is to explain the text, tellign students what it means and what they are to do in obedience to it. How is that not authority?
 
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guitarpreacher

New Member
Matthew 8:5-12

5When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."
7Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

8The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Now that's a good definition of authority, and it don't sound like a Sunday School teacher to me.
 
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ScottEmerson

Active Member
The word authority in this instance is "authenteo", which according to Thayers lists this definition (It's only found once in the NT, so he uses outside Biblical references):

"a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own and kills others or himself. b. in later Greek writings, one who does a thing himself, the author, one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, an absolute master, and to exercise dominion over one."

I personally don't see any teacher, male or female, to be an authority of this sense over me. Where does the priesthood of the believer come in? Where does soul liberty come in?
 
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ScottEmerson

Active Member
Also looking at teaching, it is clear that if women are not allowed to teach in the worship service, then they should not be allowed to sing in mixed company, according to Colossians 3:16:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
 
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Johnv

New Member
Scott et al, "authenteo" means "to control in a domineering manner", and is found only once in scripture (1 Ti 2:12).

The word for the "leadership" type of authority is "exousia" which is found in numerous places in the NT (and translated "authority").
 
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jshurley04

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If you don't consider teaching a position of authority, then what is the teacher doing? I don't want to prolong this ... and wasn't going to post ... but I just don't get it. The job of the teacher of the Bible is to explain the text, tellign students what it means and what they are to do in obedience to it. How is that not authority?
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That is where the difference is. We see teaching in differnent lights. I don't believe that teaching in Sunday School or even a Bible Study is one person in front of a group of people spewing things that they will believe in or leave over. That is preaching and not teaching.

I believe that teaching should be more of a guided tour of what the material is. If we allow them to discover for themselves and learn it for themselves, then they will hold on to what they learn. And they really learn what they learn. We are to guide our people in a directed path of theological discovery as they learn. Teaching is not sitting on high saying "this is what you will believe and know", rather we are to provide an atmosphere where their eyes are opened by their learning process, we provide the structure, questions, debate, background and guidance for them to learn what it is we feel that they need to learn for that day, meeting, or study.

I know many people who believe that teaching is a "me telling you" what to believe situation. That is fine for their ministry and their people may even need that. I just believe that people learn on different levels and need different things from their teachers.
 
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Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I can't see that as a legitimate definition of teaching. No teacher's school in the world would either. Teaching is explaining the truth. In biblical teaching, it is telling people what God says, and therefore what should be believed.

To equate it with singing is also particularly unfortunate, since it really has nothing in common. I think we are really reaching here to try to get around what Scripture says. "Why" is my continued question?

As for definitions of authority, autohrity encompasses many things. To limit it is simply inadequate.
 
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El_Guero

New Member
If Pastor Larry addressed this, I regret the late emphasis:

I believe that Piper is one of them. [referring to Piper for doctrinal authority]
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Godly Doctrine is built upon the Word of God and not that of Man.
 
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El_Guero

New Member
Pastor Larry & Jshurley,

This is mostly semantics. Inductive teaching methods utilize the learner discovering the subject. Deductive teaching involves the teacher 'lecturing' (& preaching).
 
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Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
To some degree it is semantics, but even inductive learning in a public setting still requires someone to guide the process, to be an authority. And I question whether induction is the best method of Bible teaching. Was it really intended to be settled by groupthink? Of course, that is a whole different topic, totally off this one, and I have no answer for it. I am just wondering out loud.
 
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El_Guero

New Member
mmm ... as long as you don't do that while you preach (accidently), I doubt anyone that matters will notice.
 
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