A strict 5-point Calvinist God is not worthy of worship...

[Matt Black]

Discuss, people!

Basic argument is this:-

A G/g*od who deliberately creates some humans willing that they be damned and subject to eternal punishment is a cruel and wicked tyrannical deity who is not worthy of any worship but rather is to be feared. He cannot in any way we understand as being created in image of said deity be said to be good and therefore we should blaspheme rather than worship such a being.

That's the premise; I'm keeping quiet about whether I subscribe in any shape of form to it, but would like your thoughts.

Let the debate begin!

Yours in Christ

Matt

*delete as applicable

 

[Deacon]

Shall the clay complain to the potter?

Who are we to say that God is cruel?

Truly our God is both great and terrible in His judgements, yet His love abounds.

Rob

 

[Matt Black]

Is he or isn't he cruel if the above be true?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Hardsheller]

The above is simply not true.

All mankind is hellbound and it is only because God chooses to save some - that any are rescued from hell.

Man goes to hell not because he is forced to by God but because he will not turn to God no matter how much he hears the Gospel apart from a specific salvific act of God in his heart.

Men who will not bow to God cannot worship God and will continue to blaspheme Him in thought and deed until death.

 

[Pastor Larry]

They are not damned without cause. They are sinful creatures and a God who did not damn them would be an unjust and unholy God.

The issue you bring up is not one of strict 5 pointer-ism, but rather one of supra/infra/sub lapsarianism. A 5 pointer can be a infra or a sub lapsarian and escape the "dilemma" above, if indeed we accept the premise of the statement.

I don't accept the premise, though I don't beleive it involves anything unjust or unholy in God. The coming judgment of God is a cause for fear and the fact that people do not fear it shows just how steeped in sin and rebellion they really are.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hardsheller said:

..... he will not turn to God no matter how much he hears the Gospel apart from a specific salvific act of God in his heart.

Oh, but I know of at least one or two five point Calvinists on this board who say God elected the sinner by believing and taking God as Lord and Savior which means no salvific act unless one believes first.

 

[Matt Black]

Pastor Larry, OK, the scenario I'm describing therefore is supralapsarian; God determines and wills people to be damned.

HS, would a God who created hellbound creatures be worthy of worship?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Hardsheller said:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
..... he will not turn to God no matter how much he hears the Gospel apart from a specific salvific act of God in his heart.

Oh, but I know of at least one or two five point Calvinists on this board who say God elected the sinner by believing and taking God as Lord and Savior which means no salvific act unless one believes first. </font>[/QUOTE]Then they are not true "Calvinists."

 

[npetreley]

A G/g*od who deliberately creates some humans willing that they be damned and subject to eternal punishment is a cruel and wicked tyrannical deity who is not worthy of any worship but rather is to be feared.

All of what you say here is hogwash except the last part. Yes, our God is to be feared. Coming to terms with that is the beginning of wisdom, as Proverbs says. Once you come to terms with that, you can begin to understand things like election and predestination.

 

[Matt Black]

Explain what parts are 'hogwash' and why

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[pinoybaptist]

MB said:

HS, would a God who created hellbound creatures be worthy of worship?

Unless what you want is a discussion on suppositions, will you please tell us where the Scripture is that says God created hellbound creatures ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Oh, sorry, I forgot to add:

And where are the Scriptures that says He created heaven bound creatures ?

 

[Matt Black]

The 'hellbound' bit does not I believe spring from Scripture directly but from the following argument (which those who argue it would say is drawn from Scripture):-

"If it is said that God creates all human life and if it said also that He elects some to eternal life and that those who are not so elected are (a) damned and (b) unable to do anything about that in the state in which they were created, then it follows surely that He deliberately creates hellbound humans."

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The 'hellbound' bit does not I believe spring from Scripture directly but from the following argument (which those who argue it would say is drawn from Scripture):-

"If it is said that God creates all human life and if it said also that He elects some to eternal life and that those who are not so elected are (a) damned and (b) unable to do anything about that in the state in which they were created, then it follows surely that He deliberately creates hellbound humans."

Yours in Christ

Matt

So, according to this argument you just presented, which I am not implying is your argument, God is the author of sin as much as the author of good.

I reject that, and I don't know if you accept that, but to each his own persuasion.

What is clearly implied and/or taught in Scripture is that God is Omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning, and clearly foreseeing the fall, but not authoring it, and because He is Mercy itself, decided to rescue many from the just punishment of sin, by writing their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, and in due time, born of a woman, under the Law, lived as a man among the fallen, and effectively undertook the redemption of those whom He decided to bestow mercy on.

Those whose names He did not write in the Book of Life are judged in accordance with their deeds, stemming from their fallen nature, but, their judgement is not because of their fallen nature itself.

This did not take away the responsibility of man to live righteously before His maker, but simply highlighted his inability to do so, and also stressed the mercy of God in doing for man what he is unable to do for himself, obey and fulfill all the Law.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Explain what parts are 'hogwash' and why

Yours in Christ

Matt

This part:

A G/g*od who deliberately creates some humans willing that they be damned and subject to eternal punishment is a cruel and wicked tyrannical deity

The assumptions behind this are terribly flawed. You are assuming God waved His magic wand and created beings with the intent that they be damned in hell. That is not what happened, nor is it why we are in our current condition.

God created Adam and Eve. They were warned that if they disobeyed, they would die. Having disobeyed, they became spiritually dead.

We inherited that condition. So God did not "create" anyone fit for hell. We are fit for hell because we inherited the condition of our fallen race. Our condition is, by default, worthy of eternal punishment because we are descendents in a race in that condition.

God would be perfectly just and not tyrannical at all to leave us alone and let everyone perish and go to hell. The fact that God chose SOME whom He foreknew to be saved (and provided that salvation through the blood of His Son) is an act of MERCY. Mercy is something that we do not deserve, it is the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

Given that God is under no obligation to show mercy to ANYONE, God has the right to show mercy on whomever He please to have mercy, and not show mercy on whomever He pleases not to have mercy.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The immutability of God's attributes of justice, love and mercy in the Bible, disallows any teaching of a pick and choose Lord, who affords some Heaven while denying the majority this eternal benefit.

The Lord God is equitable in all of His dealings with sinful, human beings. Some of the brethren on the board need to pick up a thick volume or volumes on "The Attributes of God." This would end much of the error and vapid ideas that some people entertain and spiritually ingest.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ray Berrian:

You keep accusing those of the Doctrines of Grace of having a God who is whimsical.

But, take a look at your soteriology.

Your soteriology says that God has left it to spiritually dead, spiritually deaf, and spiritually blind, unregenerate man to decide his eternity for himself.

And the way he decides is by choosing to accept or reject Christ as Lord and Savior, thru the means of having heard the gospel.

And they hear the gospel thru the preaching of man who is limited as to his ability to be everywhere there are human beings, and to be there at all times of the day and night, since men and women are being born and die at any time of the day or night.

Finally, there is the quality of the gospel being preached to the hearer. Is it the true gospel ? Is every 'preacher of righteousness' out there preaching the true 'righteousness of God' ?

You demand, like a Calvinist in this board, that they hear and assent to the gospel message before any salvific effect can take place, when such assent to the gospel message can only take place in the heart of those who have been reborn
by the will of God (John 1:13).

Between limited man, who may or may not carry the true gospel message with him, and Omnipresent God the Holy Spirit, who cannot lie, who do you think reaches more ?

 

[BobRyan]

Pinoy said --
What is clearly implied and/or taught in Scripture is that God is Omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning, and clearly foreseeing the fall, but not authoring it

A finer Arminian statement could not be framed for this subject.

(In fact Calvinism does not work so in every case - the "details" must be Arminian. This is just another good example of that maxim)

BTW - that statement of yours is also true of Lucifer and the unfallen angels BEFORE they fell.

It is also true of Adam and Eve before they fell.

It is true of those angels that remain unfallen as well.

Think about it. "Free Will"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Pinly --
, and because He is Mercy itself, decided to rescue many from the just punishment of sin, by writing their names in the Lamb's Book of Life,

Neither the lost NOR the elect has comitted any sin in "eternity passed". So declaring that God is just in NOT selecting the wicked "because they have sinned" is nonsense. They are not even born.

(And what of the unborn, the infant deaths etc -- beings who "also" chose "nothing")

and in due time, born of a woman, under the Law, lived as a man among the fallen, and effectively undertook the redemption of those whom He decided to bestow mercy on.

When your neighbor suffers an accident and you willingly elect to take care of SOME of his children - while letting the rest suffer out in the cold - are you NOT accountable for doing ALL that you CAN do -- and not just ALL that you FEEL like doing?

WHAT IF in that scenario you go around saying "I AM NOT WILLING that ANY child should be without shelter as long as there is room in my house." BUT still you only shelter SOME of your neighbor's children.

Have you not "obligated YOURSELF" to be true to YOUR OWN word?

If God truly SELECTS OUT SOME to be saved and cares not for others by using the argument "look they are all sinners I don't HAVE to care for all of them if I don't want to"... - then say "hello" again to the Future Calvinist scenario - only this time - sign your name to it.

In Christ,

Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

Pinoy --
Those whose names He did not write in the Book of Life are judged in accordance with their deeds, stemming from their fallen nature, but, their judgement is not because of their fallen nature itself.

Is it "Because of their deeds" then? Even the unborn? the infant that dies?

"Whatever is NOT of faith is sin" - are they capable of choosing to withhold faith, to commit acts AGAINST their faith?

Have they committed any acts at all - at the foundation of the World?

This did not take away the responsibility of man to live righteously before His maker, but simply highlighted his inability to do so, and also stressed the mercy of God in doing for man what he is unable to do for himself

Indeed - and HE CLAIMS that He did so "NOT FOR our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" for God the Father sent the Son to be "THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" (1John 2:2, and 1John 4:9-10)

(See? Every point is a good point to contrast Calvinism with scripture).

In Christ,

Bob