A strict 5-point Calvinist God is not worthy of worship...

pinoybaptist · Sep 17, 2004

I've seen this argument before, Matt, in an atheists' forum. Never expected the same argument to be used by a Christian simply to either prove that God is a whimsical God who creates man to toy with him in hell, or to make him a worshipping robot in heaven.

Deism.

The dictionary defines deism as:

The doctrine or creed of a deist; the belief or system of those who acknowledge the existence of one God, but deny revelation.

Note: Deism is the belief in natural religion only, or those truths, in doctrine and practice, which man is to discover by the light of reason, independent of any revelation from God. Hence, deism implies infidelity, or a disbelief in the divine origin of the Scriptures.

Now, in every discussion with anyone, including you, Matt, I have fallen squarely back on Scripture, and therefore, am not a Deist.

The core of your argument is that God Himself is responsible for the evil in man because He has power over it but refuses to extend that power to all, and instead uses it only on some, thereby removing total responsibility from man for his sinful state, and putting the blame on God.

However, here is Romans 1 for you:

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:19-28

It's the other way around from the beginning.

Adam and Eve, uncorrupted, no taint of sin, the only ones in the entire human race with true, unrestrained, free will dwelling in the presence of God, who gave them everything they needed, and allowed them freedom in and of everything, save one, freely chose to disobey God and believe a fallen being.

They transferred loyalty and allegiances, not God.

And their descendants had the spoken record of Adam and Eve passed on down the line. Read the genealogies of Genesis, if you will.

God never abandoned man. He left a spoken record, He left the testimony of nature, and He left the testimony of His word.

That God had to move, that is, do the choosing, simply highlights the inability of man to come to God except by God's supernatural intervention.

npetreley · Sep 17, 2004

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Ah, there be the rub. If God does create human life (albeit in a different way than with Adam and Eve) then I believe you and I are in agreement that He creates - indeed wills - some for punishment.

The problem with your reasoning is that you want to ignore the distinction between having our fallen nature inherited, and being created with a fallen nature. You want to do this because it helps you make your case.

But you can't ignore that distinction. If EVERYONE is born with a fallen nature (born spiritually dead), then the difference between one person and another depends upon whom God shows MERCY, not how they were "created". God isn't in the ongoing process of choosing to create some people for the purpose of sending them to hell -- that process started with Adam and is simply continuing on.

According to that process, EVERYONE would go to hell if God didn't choose to show mercy on one or more persons.

So the difference boils down to whether or not it is just for God to show mercy to SOME rather than ALL. And that question is answered very clearly in the Bible. He will have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy, period.

Now - I personally believe that God has the right to create a spiritually dead person from dust for the explicit purpose of using that person as part of His plans according to His good pleasure, even if the end result is that the person goes to hell because God created him that way. But that's not what's going on here, so that argument would be academic only.

The point, once again, is that you're looking at things backward. You're starting from the fact that SOME people get saved, and then drawing the conclusion that Calvinists say God deliberately damns the rest. But in reality, the starting point is that everyone is born spiritually dead and unsaved, and God saves SOME. God does so by making these people NEW CREATIONS in Christ. So if God is creating anything now, He is creating new people by regenerating them.

In the end, the people who get saved are SPARED what they deserve. The rest GET what they deserve. There's nothing unjust about that.

qwerty · Sep 17, 2004

Mr. Matt Black,
Thanks for this enlightening thread.

I have had similar thoughts.

GE 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.

A key question:
Does God still create today?
Does God still create human life today?
Who is responsible for conception?
God, or the human couple?
Is a human couple able to create life?
A man contributes a sperm, and the woman contributes an egg.
But how is God involved when the two (sperm and egg) meet, and form the cell that will become a person?
When does the spirit of the person enter into the person?
Does it just happen at the time of conception, or is God involved?

GE 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

GE 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

For those of you reading this, were you created in this way? Are you created in the image of God? Did God see, after He created you, that you were "very good"?

2PE 3:9 He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Matt Black · Sep 17, 2004

But how then can Man be said in any respect to be responsible for his sinful actions, if we are all born (I will stick with your terminology if you prefer although to deny God's part in our individual creation does smack of Deism to me) into a damned state? I humbly submit that the answer is no, because to suggest otherwise is a logical impossibility. To say likewise that Adam and Eve are responsible would be an injustice inconsistent with God's nature as elsewhere revealed eg: in Scripture. The only logical conclusion is that God is responsible, so your argument is not merely academic; even if it were, I cannot see how a deity who creates for that purpose would be good in the way we understand God to be. Such a god may have the 'right' to create a man in that way but would clearly not be good.

Yours in Christ

Matt

Kiffin · Sep 17, 2004

Discuss, people!

Basic argument is this:-

A G/g*od who deliberately creates some humans willing that they be damned and subject to eternal punishment is a cruel and wicked tyrannical deity who is not worthy of any worship but rather is to be feared. He cannot in any way we understand as being created in image of said deity be said to be good and therefore we should blaspheme rather than worship such a being.

That's the premise; I'm keeping quiet about whether I subscribe in any shape of form to it, but would like your thoughts.

Let the debate begin!

Yours in Christ

Matt

I think your premise is flawed. The premise tries to define Calvinism Double Predestination doctrine in a neat little statement and is trying to logically define why God does things. God and many Biblical things defy logic such as the Trinity, Incarnation, Christ 2 Natures and Why did God choose Israel and not Egypt, Babylon, Assyria etc....and yes the tension between Whosoever Will may Come and Predestination and Election. These doctrines are all true but can hardly be understood by human reasoning and logic.

The same argument can be used to turn Free Willism into teaching a Evil God. " If God is so loving Why doesn't he save every single person who ever lived? "

That is the problem when trying to use logic to understand the Mind and Will of God. Also to reject Adam as your representative in the Garden because it is supposely unfair means you would also have to reject Christ as your representative on the Cross since it would be unfair for a Holy God to represent sinners. Salvation has never been about being Fair but about Grace to unworthy rebellious sinners.

pinoybaptist · Sep 17, 2004

Kiffin said:

.....Also to reject Adam as your representative in the Garden because it is supposely unfair means you would also have to reject Christ as your representative on the Cross since it would be unfair for a Holy God to represent sinners. Salvation has never been about being Fair but about Grace to unworthy rebellious sinners.

And I say, well put and Amen !

qwerty · Sep 17, 2004

kiffin wrote:
That is the problem when trying to use logic to understand the Mind and Will of God.

I thought that's what Calvinism was all about.

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2004

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:

Free will was true of man before the fall, when his nature was yet uncorrupted and bound by sin.

I have had a hard time getting Calvinists like Nick to go along with that obvious point.

Pinoy said

There is no more pre-Fall free will in man. Man's will is bound to his fallen nature. There is no innate goodness and faith towards God in the natural man.

You are not following the topic.

I do not challenge that - in fact I argue that it is only the John 12:32 DRAWING of God that ENABLES the choice that was lost at the fall.

But I argue that "ALL MANKIND" really does mean "ALL" and not "the arbitrarily select FEW of Matt 7".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2004

Nicke said
But you can't ignore that distinction. If EVERYONE is born with a fallen nature (born spiritually dead), then the difference between one person and another depends upon whom God shows MERCY, not how they were "created". God isn't in the ongoing process of choosing to create some people for the purpose of sending them to hell -- that process started with Adam and is simply continuing on.

According to that process, EVERYONE would go to hell if God didn't choose to show mercy on one or more persons.

Well at least you can find Ariminians (like me) that will agree with you to that point.

AFter this point however - you seem to lose it.

Nick said --
So the difference boils down to whether or not it is just for God to show mercy to SOME rather than ALL. And that question is answered very clearly in the Bible.

Indeed it is.

"I WILL DRAW ALL unto ME"

God made Christ to be the atoning sacrifice "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

So it IS up to God who shows mercy AND He is the one who shows mercy TO ALL - sending His provision and blessing on the just and the unjust. (Matt 6) and even "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" for He is the "Savior of the WORLD"

Get it?

So NOW that the Loving God of mercy HAS drawn ALL and ENABLE ALL to choose and provided the atoning sacrifice for ALL -- why are not ALL choosing life?

In ENABLING choice they are not LOCKED into choosing right any more than Adam was LOCKED into choosing right.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2004

Nick said --
He will have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy, period.

Now - I personally believe that God has the right to create a spiritually dead person from dust for the explicit purpose of using that person as part of His plans according to His good pleasure, even if the end result is that the person goes to hell because God created him that way. But that's not what's going on here, so that argument would be academic only.

The point, once again, is that you're looking at things backward. You're starting from the fact that SOME people get saved, and then drawing the conclusion that Calvinists say God deliberately damns the rest. But in reality, the starting point is that everyone is born spiritually dead and unsaved, and God saves SOME. God does so by making these people NEW CREATIONS in Christ. So if God is creating anything now, He is creating new people by regenerating them.

In the end, the people who get saved are SPARED what they deserve. The rest GET what they deserve. There's nothing unjust about that.

Hmmm. Calvinist future scenario time - as it fits your statement above PERFECTLY.

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:
“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. This scenario simply removes that “luxury” in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear - "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about You in the end) Blessing the fact that He chose You - that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's. So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?

God who arbitrarily selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the calvinist mind.

Here is a direct quote of one of our Calvinist brethren overjoyed on this very point.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=000806
posted June 18, 2003 04:29 PM
Tyndale1946 (Glenn)
I love the doctrine of Election because it tells me of a Sovereign God who was in control of the Eternal Salvation of his children before Man ever graced this earth... The doctrine of Election is beautiful because it tells us God know and will save ALL his children he purposed to save and none else... Some will say that the doctrine of election is unjust... Is it?... Would not the Sovereign God Of All Glory been justified if seeing the end from the beginning and those thing not yet done... Said I will do all my pleasure!... The Son of God saying... Father they have sinned against you and are not worth it let them all die in their sins... There is no redemption for their like... Did we not ALL deserve a sinners HELL?... GOD FORBID!

Pastor Larry
Christ was Arminian? (Page 6) posted April 16, 2003 10:55 AM
You said How can Calvinists speak of Docrtines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about?. The biblical response is "Yes, this is something to shout about since the angels in heaven shout over even one." The "relative few" (in your words) are certainly more than one and bring great joy, and great shouting in heaven.

August 2004 quote
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1154.html#000014

quote: Bob said
________________________________________
What Calvinism "needs" is for the text to say "I DRAW ALL the FEW of Matt 7" or it needs to say "I draw A FEW of mankind" or it needs to say "I draw a FEW of the Jews and the Gentiles...
________________________________________

Nick said –

It does not need to say anything of the sort. If Jesus is saying that He draws both Jews and Gentiles, this is a revelation to the people of the time, who thought Jesus came only for the sake of the Jews. It says nothing about whether Jesus will draw each and every Jew and each and every Gentile.

Indeed, it cannot possibly mean that Jesus will draw every human being, both every Jew and every Gentile. Why? For the simple fact that the Bible goes on to say that God deliberately blinds some people so that they will be condemned.

</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob

Ray Berrian · Sep 17, 2004

' Salvation has never been about being Fair but about Grace to unworthy rebellious sinners.'

It is unChristian to expunge the fairness/justice of the Lord while affirming grace. The Godhead has sovereignly offered salvation/everlasting life with Jesus to all rebellious sinners. Romans 2:11 does not say 'There is no respecter of persons with God, except in the matter of My unconditional election.' It is foolish to say that Almighty God is fair in His justice except in matters of hand-picking His people. Jesus is just in offering His grace to all sinners. [Matt. 11:28] Our Lord said, 'Come unto Me, ALL ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' Christians already 'rest' in Christ; sinner need to find their 'eternal rest' in Jesus.

npetreley · Sep 17, 2004

Originally posted by Matt Black:
But how then can Man be said in any respect to be responsible for his sinful actions, if we are all born [...] into a damned state?

Or, in other words,

"Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

To which I answer from the Bible...

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

npetreley · Sep 17, 2004

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
It is unChristian to expunge the fairness/justice of the Lord while affirming grace.

Well, well, well! You finally see enough a distinction between "fairness" and "justice" that you put a slash between them!

Now that you understand (or are close to understanding) that these terms are not synonymous, show me in your theology books where it demonstrates from scripture that God has a divine attribute of fairness.

WallDoctor · Sep 17, 2004

I am almost afraid to say that I am a full 5 point Calvinist because if you are going to attack God for being Sovereign, than I don't stand a chance against your wrath....

Ray Berrian · Sep 17, 2004

kiffin wrote:

That is the problem when trying to use logic to understand the Mind and Will of God.

It is the would be--man of God [or woman} and the man of God's responsibility to 'rightly divide the word of truth.' [II Timothy 2:15] Another Scripture says that we a created after the likeness of God. [James 3:9] I do not think that you want to expunge I Corinthians 2:16c which tell us that we who are saved have ' . . . the mind of Christ.' These are rather good tools, if you will, with which to understand the mind and will of God, as we understand His book, the Bible.

Not every member of a church is gifted to be an exegete of His Word. To whom much is given much will be required.

BobRyan · Sep 17, 2004

Originally posted by WallDoctor:
I am almost afraid to say that I am a full 5 point Calvinist because if you are going to attack God for being Sovereign, than I don't stand a chance against your wrath....

Is it "really" an attack on God - to simply expose what 4 and 5 pt Calvinists are really saying about Him?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear - "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about You in the end) Blessing the fact that He chose You - that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's. So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?

God who arbitrarily selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the calvinist mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Christ,

Bob

Pastor Larry · Sep 18, 2004

Is it "really" an attack on God - to simply expose what 4 and 5 pt Calvinists are really saying about Him?

No, it isn't. But that is not what you are doing. You repeat your nonsensical story that has been addressed soundly before as a gross misrepresentation of the what we believe. You get your mind set on something and can't seem to get past it. So you keep repeating it, unfortunately.

pinoybaptist · Sep 18, 2004

Ray said:

It is the would be--man of God [or woman} It is the would be--man of God [or woman} .... responsibility to 'rightly divide the word of truth.'...

Now, I'm not sure what you mean by would be man of God or woman here. Could it be you mean one who is in theology school and aspiring to be a preacher or a church worker ?

If so, how can he/she rightly divide the word of God.

For one, when you go to Theology School you are immediately in a box, because the unwritten rule is 'this is what we believe, and this is what you will believe, and this is what you will teach others to believe.
You may raise a question, discuss something, struggle over something, but, in the end, when you move that tassle on your toga, you will be a stalwart of our doctrine.'

At least, that's how it is for the 'conservatives'.

If what you mean by 'would be man of God or woman' is the ordinary man/woman in the unsaved world, then again you have to consider what Paul said about the natural man:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned..... 1 Cor. 2:14

BobRyan · Sep 18, 2004

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
No, it isn't. But that is not what you are doing. You repeat your nonsensical story that has been addressed soundly before as a gross misrepresentation of the what we believe. You get your mind set on something and can't seem to get past it. So you keep repeating it, unfortunately.

It is true that I have a number of Calvinists on this board to thank for helping me come up with that Calvinist future scenario. Some recent contributions from Nick are much appreciated.

But it should be noted that the quote from Pastor Larry that affirms some of the key salient points in that futuere scenario were provided over a year ago - back when I first came up with it.

Pastor Larry
Christ was Arminian? (Page 6) posted April 16, 2003 10:55 AM
You said How can Calvinists speak of Docrtines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about?. The biblical response is "Yes, this is something to shout about since the angels in heaven shout over even one." The "relative few" (in your words) are certainly more than one and bring great joy, and great shouting in heaven.

My thanks to you - first and foremost.

In Christ,

Bob

Pastor Larry · Sep 19, 2004

Bob, I am telling you you are dead wrong. There is nothing in my statements that supports your scenario. It is a gross misrepresentation and shows just how uninformed and unwilling to learn you are. It is sad that you continue with it, knowing that it is false.

Please do not continue in that line.

A strict 5-point Calvinist God is not worthy of worship...

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