A strict 5-point Calvinist God is not worthy of worship...

[BobRyan]

I asked "How can Calvinists speak of Docrtines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about?.

Your answer to that question is much more telling than you are willing to believe. And fits perfectly with the "its all about you" model described in the scenario. In your response you DO focus ONLY on the joy for the saved.

It is blatantly obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinobaptist,

'Now, I'm not sure what you mean by would be man of God or woman here. Could it be you mean one who is in theology school and aspiring to be a preacher or a church worker

If so, how can he/she rightly divide the word of God.

For one, when you go to Theology School you are immediately in a box, because the unwritten rule is 'this is what we believe, and this is what you will believe, and this is what you will teach others to believe.

You may raise a question, discuss something, struggle over something, but, in the end,
when you move that tassle on your toga, you will be a stalwart of our doctrine.'

At least, that's how it is for the 'conservatives'.

Yes, you caught the drift. I was speaking about someone who is being trained for Christian ministry.

I went to a five point Calvinistic seminary in Philadelphia and the professor, Dr. Rudolph was so adament about his beliefs that he would not even entertain questions coming from the other side. He was a graduate of Westminster Theological Seminary. After one year there I moved my credits to another evangelical seminary in the northeast. If you can't ask questions you cannot learn.

In my view of things you have to learn both sides of the views in order to evaluate those ideas in relation to the Bible.

If a person is going to go into a denomination that is the same as the seminaries beliefs it seems necessary to teach what you have been taught. But, if you were going into more of free will kind of church you might even better explain this side of the Christian thought. The seminaries that I graduated from did not ask us to sign a document saying that I would only teach their 'party line.' At least knowing both sides of the coin, you learn to be accepting of other people's ideas, to some extent.'

If what you mean by 'would be man of God or woman' is the ordinary man/woman in the unsaved world, then again you have to consider what Paul said about the natural man:

'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.'

While I believe what you said above, I meant a saved man or woman who wants to understand and know what the Word of God is saying. Thank God there is so much that both sides agree about, and yet when it comes to Calvinistic and Arminian views these people need to understand both perspectives coming from their best teachers.'

The key is to be open to the Holy Spirit to forget a wrong idea in place of a new concept.
Example: I used to believe as soon as one wilfully sins they fell from grace; but now I have come to believe in the perfect security of the Christian believer. I believe that the Spirit of God was remoulding my spiritual understanding.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I asked "How can Calvinists speak of Docrtines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about?.

Your answer to that question is much more telling than you are willing to believe. And fits perfectly with the "its all about you" model described in the scenario. In your response you DO focus ONLY on the joy for the saved.

I don't focus only on the joy for the saved. I simply pointed out what Scripture says. It is not 'all about you." It is all about God.

Your story needs to be retired. If you are going to debate Calvinism, then debate Calvinism. Don't make up your own enemy and present it here.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Matt;

Flowing from the above, next question: am I or God responsible for my sinful state?

I am and God doesn't create men for destruction Nor does He predestine anyone to Hell
May God Bless You
Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Thanks for that, and also thanks to Kiffin with whom I largely agree - this IS a mystery and extreme Calvinists and extreme Arminians alike who try to logically pin God down destroy that sense of divine mystery; both extremes tend towards Deism in part - Calvinism, by denying God a free hand in creation since the Fall, and Arminianism by denying God's sovereignty in that creation with particular reference to salvation.

Bottom line is this: I simply can't believe that I am purely the product of a biological process which excludes God; therefore God had a hand in creating me the way I am. The rest of my argument flows from that...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Primitive Baptist]

I've always been a little relunctant to blaspheme the "god" of someone else. I approach soteriology from a Calvinistic viewpoint, but I would be scared to say that the god of the Arminians is not worthy of worship. Are you 100% sure that Calvinism is a misrepresentation of Yahweh/Jehovah? If not, I would be careful.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I believe that all people rise or fall on this verse. I John 4:2 says, 'Hereby know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit {Christian} who confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.'

All Christians, coming from both Calvinistic and Arminian perspective are in the faith if they truly trust Jesus for His matchless grace and only, future hope of glory. If people do not trust in Jesus for their only hope they are outside the pale of His church. This is a major test as to who are really saved, but this is not the only test of orthodoxy.

Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, Th.D. & Ph.D. from Dallas Seminary deals with I II & III John in "The Wycliffe Bible Commentary where he explains this verse. He has said, 'If He had not taken upon Himself a human body, He could never have died and been the Savior.'

Religious people who believe that Jesus was/is less than God are as lost as the self-proclaimed sinner.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Matt Black]

PB, what I'm asking is this: if (and opinion is divided on this thread as to whether this is true, but let's assume it is for this purpose) God creates men who are automatically damned and they have no control over that destiny, how can that God be said to be good and therefore worthy of our worship?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
I am [responsible for my sin]

I assume you would also agree that all men/women are responsible for their sin, right? Then how could it possibly be unjust for God to send anyone who is responsible for their sin to hell?

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
and God doesn't create men for destruction

I agree that God does not create men for destruction in the same way that God created Adam. But God does prepare men for destruction.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory

Yes, I know this is a "what if" question. But there's no getting around the fact that Paul is saying that there's no injustice in this, otherwise he wouldn't pose the question as an answer to "why does He still blame us, for who resists His will?" In other words, if God prepares some for destruction and others for glory, what's that to you? God is God, and He is the potter, and He can do whatever please Him. There is no injustice in that.

Notice also the difference --

1. The vessels of wrath are tolerated for God's purpose of showing His wrath. They do not need to be prepared beforehand for desctruction, because that is ALREADY their fate. They were born that way, thanks to the spiritually dead state they inherited from Adam.

2. The vessels of mercy are prepared beforehand for glory -- that is, predestined for glory. These are the ones God predestined to be rescued from their spiritually dead state.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by npetreley:
But God does prepare men for destruction.

... In other words, if God prepares some for destruction and others for glory, what's that to you?

It's everything to me; aside from the fact that I think you've misinterpreted the Romans passage, it's the difference between a good God and a bad god. It's of vital importance - 'prepare', 'create' - what's the difference; God is still the author and perfecter of their perdition, and I find that an abhorrent concept.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Ray Berrian]

'I don't focus only on the joy for the saved. I simply pointed out what Scripture says. It is not 'all about you." It is all about God.'

God's writers of the books of the Bible wrote on behalf of the Godhead. It was/is not God writing to Himself and His glory; we already understand His resplendent holiness and grace and that we must always praise Him here and in eternal life.

The Bible 'is not all about Almighty God; the Word of God--the Bible is His Word because it is also about the unsaved getting saved and the saved living for the glory and praise of Christ, the Father and the precious Holy Spirit. Calvinism says that it is all about God while Arminianism suggests and teaches that it is about Him and His relation toward all human beings.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

PB, what I'm asking is this: if (and opinion is divided on this thread as to whether this is true, but let's assume it is for this purpose) God creates men who are automatically damned and they have no control over that destiny, how can that God be said to be good and therefore worthy of our worship?

Yours in Christ

Matt

Paul clearly answers that objection in Romans 9. What more are you looking for? God has already spoken to us in His word. Are you looking for a sign? Are you looking for a vision of James Arminius? God's word is the final authority. Period.

 

[Matt Black]

It is not at all clear; Nick above on the one hand interprets it to mean that God does not create men for destruction (with which I agree) but then goes on to say that He prepares men for destruction (with which I disagree). Now, before you jump on me and say I'm disagreeing with Scripture, let me say that I am merely disagreeing with one interpretation of Scripture, and I disagree with that interpretation precisely because it is inconsistent with the revelation of God shown elsewhere in Scripture and, more particularly, in Jesus Christ, namely His goodness.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Matt Black]

Let me clarify the issue here further:-

My premise is as follows:-

1. God is Love, is infinite,is good, is infinitely good. This is revealed in Scripture and the Incarnation; these are essential aspects and characteristics of God - they make Him God

2. It flows from the above that He is worthy of our worship, indeed our whole lives

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Matt Black]

BUT

1. A being who creates/ wills/ deliberately determines that some men without any choice will burn in the fires of Hell for all eternity clearly cannot be good; that's like me buying two cats, one to look after and pamper and the other to torture to death eg: by pouring kerosene over it; or, I have two sons - one I love and shower attention on, the other I beat black and blue, whip, abuse and starve to death. Such a being cannot be loved or worshipped, but can only be feared and loathed, AND

2. It flows from the above that such a being cannot be God

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[rc]

Matt,

Your line of reasoning is the very reason why the Holy Spirit anticipated it in the context you are replying to in Rom 9.22 ! Could it be you are arueing with Paul? The HS wrote this because He knew the man centered ways of man and how much we like to ascribe "our" understanding of justice and love to God in our pride instead of what God says in scripture as a God centered reasoning behind it all.

You replied with a humanistic/philosophical/postmodernistic understanding of love and justice and say because of your understanding of other verses, this (rom 9.22) can't be true...but then you never give your understanding to the verse! Maybe you are taking out of context the other verses (which you are) that you eisegete and rely on those and ignore 9.22? Possible?

Why would Paul ANTICIPATE this arguement? "And more importantly why are you on the side of the one asking the question? THis is why I am a Paulinian and do not say I am a Calvinist.. because Calvin, Luther and the gang where just saying what Paul was... The Arminian side comes from Greek humanistic philosophy. (man centered).

ALL is done for the glory of God. The Bible is GOD centered.

Your cat analogy is amazingly humanistic.... Man centered... don't you see your world view is shaping your theology? You presuppose the cats DESERVE to be BOTH LOVED and treated the SAME!

Biblically man deserves hell... ALL of us. Not heaven... that is the only way we are the same.

The only reason why any of us goes to Heaven is because God chose to save. Thus He gets Glory not only because of His Mercy but God also gets glory for His justice... Is it not just to condemn someone for rejecting, hating, rebelling against a Holy God... NO....You can not find one verse to go against Paul and Rom 9.22 ... that's why it is there... you have to deal with it.. I did. It's a pride issue not a theological one.. ask R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur ALL die hard humanistic Arminians in their lives....

 

[Matt Black]

But as made in God's image surely our standards and concepts of love and justice bear resemblance to God's? Therefore, dismissing my arguments as humanistic won't wash. I repeat - I have no quarrel with Rom 9:22, just that one interpretation of it

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Matt Black]

And you haven't answered any of my points. Eg: if I was to torture the cat, would that be a good act or a bad act? Are you seriously suggesting that the cat deserves it? If so, you're not coming anywhere near my pet cat

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Nick;

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory

Paul's says "what if God" Paul is asking a hypothetical question not making a statement of preparing men for destruction.
Did God show his wrath when creating man? Nope
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi rc;

The only reason why any of us goes to Heaven is because God chose to save.

Actually not exactly. The only reason any of us are saved is because Christ died for our sin debt. He died for the whole world and invites us to come to Him. Those who do are saved do come to Him and those who do not are lost do not come to Him. It's true that man can't come to Him unless drawn but since Christ was lifted up the whole world is invited.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
May God Bless You;
Mike