1. The flip-side to that is that God also chooses not to save others ie: He chooses to damn others, which means, again, that he is a Bad God (TM)
Yours in Christ
Matt
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A strict 5-point Calvinist God is not worthy of worship...
- Thread starter Matt Black
- Start date
Yours in Christ
Matt
Quoth rc also: "Is it not just to condemn someone for rejecting, hating, rebelling against a holy God?"
2. It IS just, provided that individual is capable of choosing to so rebel etc. It is obviously not just if you are claiming that they were created in that state.
Yours in Christ
Matt
2. It IS just, provided that individual is capable of choosing to so rebel etc. It is obviously not just if you are claiming that they were created in that state.
Yours in Christ
Matt
Also quoth s/he: "It's a pride issue".
3. No it's not. It is about Who God is and how He saves.
Yours in Christ
Matt
3. No it's not. It is about Who God is and how He saves.
Yours in Christ
Matt
Where did you get that? God made ADAM in His image... we only have an evil, post fall heart... Seth was made in ... ADAMS image NOT God's.
Your CONCEPTS are foundationless Matt. You assume your concepts are right... You start with philosophy (humananistic I might add.. that man has good in him) and then you interject your concepts into scripture... Scripture must form your concepts...or I could EASILY form the opinion that Justice means God will let everyone to heaven because "I wouldn't want anybody to go there" so... I'm sure God FEELS like me... hogwash...
Again you didn't understand the plight you put yourself into when you think the cat's DON'T deserve to be beaten becasue they are GOOD! Like the Humanistic, Pelagian, Greek philosophy says... man is basically good ... Which flys in the face of scripture...
Man, every man, since the fall DESERVES hell. WHy? because he is enslaved to his desires (will). God only gives them what they want... life without Him.. which is hell (after life)...which is just...
If he chooses to give someone a new heart (where the will is inclined) He has the sovereignty to do so! By the way YOU HAVEN'T said what 9.22 DOES say just what you think it doesn't mean... What does it say then? And again, why would Paul anticipate this arguement and why are you choosing that side?
He died for the whole world and invites us to come to Him. Those who do are saved do come to Him and those who do not are lost do not come to Him. It's true that man can't come to Him unless drawn but since Christ was lifted up the whole world is invited.
</font>[/QUOTE]Where does it say that Christ died for "every individual"? Also you should seriously take an English course if you don't understand the differance between "can't" and "may not" .. also how can you seriously slap together verses that have absolutley no reference to each other at all. If you take those verses in context, it is damning to Armineanism. After God draws, Jesus then says ALL that the father gives me I will raise on the last day. So if the father DRAWS and ALL that the father draws I WILL NOT CAST OUT (salvation) and He will raise on the last day then you are telling me you are a universalist? OR God does NOT draw (actually in the greek is means to drag against laws of nature) everyone. And if so He has CHOSEN ones to draw and ones He chooses not to draw.
Marcia
Active Member
All men are made in God's image. The Fall did not erase the image of God in man, only defaced it.
Note what God says about the punishment for murder in Gen 9.6:
Man is not made in the image of man - that doesn't make sense at all. All men (and women) are made in the image of God which is why one reason human life is so sacred.
Marcia
Active Member
I am going to come to the defense of the kitties, even though I am more of a dog person.
Cats don't deserve to be beaten because it's cruel to do so. Animals are not morally responsible, either, so this is irrelevant to the argument of whether man is good or evil. Of course man is morally corrupt, but kitties are just animals with no moral compass. And they are creatures of God. It is sinful to be cruel to them.
RC, note that Gen 1:26 says "let us make Man in our own image, in our likeness", NOT "let us make Adam and Eve"; the massive problem with your contention that only Adam and Eve were s created is (a) it's not in Scripture and (b) it renders human life worthless as being totally unconnected with God; we might as well let the abortionists do their grisly work then.
The argument in any event is not about the goodness of man, it's about the goodness of God, as portrayed by some. The cat shouldn't be beaten by me principally because I am good and loving (although I'm beginning to wonder about you...like I said, I wouldn't let younear my pet with an attitude like that) not because the cat may or may not 'deserve'it.
Yours in Christ
Matt
The argument in any event is not about the goodness of man, it's about the goodness of God, as portrayed by some. The cat shouldn't be beaten by me principally because I am good and loving (although I'm beginning to wonder about you...like I said, I wouldn't let younear my pet with an attitude like that) not because the cat may or may not 'deserve'it.
Yours in Christ
Matt
It's breathtakingly simple: a man who beats and burns a cat to death is wicked and cruel irrespective of whether the cat is lovely and fluffy or a bit wild and naughty -it's ts nature after all; a god who creates people deliberately to burn in Hell for all eternity whilst at the same time enabling them to do nothing about it is wicked and cruel - it's their nature after all
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Ray Berrian
New Member
Isn't it interesting that some Calvinists believe that sinners manifest their will or free-will not to savingly, believe in Jesus as personal Savior, therefore, remaining in their sins which will assure 'the second death.' [Rev. 20:14] On the other hand, the elect saints have no will or free-will to receive Christ. On this side of the ledger, Jesus hand picks the people of God.
Ray, Matt and Marcia....Pelagius...
Man is evil... he DESIRES evil 24/7. He will NEVER choose good becasue he HATES it. There is NO GOOD in man. He hates God. It has nothing to do with will but of the HEART from which gives birth to all affections/inclinations. Man is enslaved to his will. He has to choose what he desires..that is what free will is... That's why Jesus said that "no mand CAN come to me unless it has been granted him by the Father. 6.65 ... I guess you would be in the 6.66 crowd huh? Man isn't ABLE to BECAUSE of their free-will not lack of it. God let's them choose all day long whatever THEIR heart desires.. literally! He is just to condemn them to hell because that is the reward for sin. Nobody has yet to tell me why they are on the side argueing against Paul either in Rom 9.22... and by the way hypotheticals DO make statements, especially when inspired by God.
I am sorry about the far to brief agruement on the image of man.. it was late and I was inappropriatly short to not finish the arguement and deserved Marcia's reply... though man's value is because God made him and not because there is any GOOD in him... Nowhere in the Bible can you show me a verse that Man intrinsically has good in him and seeks it.
Man is evil... he DESIRES evil 24/7. He will NEVER choose good becasue he HATES it. There is NO GOOD in man. He hates God. It has nothing to do with will but of the HEART from which gives birth to all affections/inclinations. Man is enslaved to his will. He has to choose what he desires..that is what free will is... That's why Jesus said that "no mand CAN come to me unless it has been granted him by the Father. 6.65 ... I guess you would be in the 6.66 crowd huh? Man isn't ABLE to BECAUSE of their free-will not lack of it. God let's them choose all day long whatever THEIR heart desires.. literally! He is just to condemn them to hell because that is the reward for sin. Nobody has yet to tell me why they are on the side argueing against Paul either in Rom 9.22... and by the way hypotheticals DO make statements, especially when inspired by God.
I am sorry about the far to brief agruement on the image of man.. it was late and I was inappropriatly short to not finish the arguement and deserved Marcia's reply... though man's value is because God made him and not because there is any GOOD in him... Nowhere in the Bible can you show me a verse that Man intrinsically has good in him and seeks it.
Ah, so you accept that God does make man!
Yours in Christ
Matt
You also believe, as I understand it, that man as a result of that created state is wholly unable to respond to God's offer of salvation, that God has to do all the work, right? Therefore, in your universe, God not only creates man evil, but also denies him the ability to choose the only way out of it. That, I submit, is cruel, arbitrary tyrannical and monstrous.
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
rc:
while i believe that man is totally depraved, I do not believe he is incapable of any decency. There is a big difference between being totally depraved and being rapaciously devoid of any decency.
It is that part of our being created in the image of God that makes man religious and self-righteous, as Matt is now displaying, who would rather go by his logic than by what the Scriptures say. That is a good example of what total depravity is.
When Adam and Eve sinned God told them that on the day they disobeyed His commandment, they will surely die. It was stated fairly and squarely to human beings who not only had true free will, but had a choice they can exercise not bound by any fallen nature. They were free moral agents.
Instead they chose to disobey God and go with the logic of another fallen creature, that is, if they ignore God's warning, they will instead be as gods, able to decide for themselves right and wrong, to chart their own territories, to reason perfectly, and who the heck needs a God to tell them right and wrong ?
The result is a race whose choices are bound by their desires to be as gods.
Jesus Christ died the death that God warned about, for His people, and for them only. The rest of humanity are still in hock to God, owing Him a sin debt. That is not God's fault.
while i believe that man is totally depraved, I do not believe he is incapable of any decency. There is a big difference between being totally depraved and being rapaciously devoid of any decency.
It is that part of our being created in the image of God that makes man religious and self-righteous, as Matt is now displaying, who would rather go by his logic than by what the Scriptures say. That is a good example of what total depravity is.
When Adam and Eve sinned God told them that on the day they disobeyed His commandment, they will surely die. It was stated fairly and squarely to human beings who not only had true free will, but had a choice they can exercise not bound by any fallen nature. They were free moral agents.
Instead they chose to disobey God and go with the logic of another fallen creature, that is, if they ignore God's warning, they will instead be as gods, able to decide for themselves right and wrong, to chart their own territories, to reason perfectly, and who the heck needs a God to tell them right and wrong ?
The result is a race whose choices are bound by their desires to be as gods.
Jesus Christ died the death that God warned about, for His people, and for them only. The rest of humanity are still in hock to God, owing Him a sin debt. That is not God's fault.
Oh,so I'm self-righteous now, am I? Oh, well, those who lose arguments tend to resort to personal insults. And, BTW, I am going by what Scripture says.
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Scripture - and Jesus Himself as God Incarnate -reveal a God of love, mercy, compassion and justice as well as a God of holiness. That is wholly consistent with Scripture, unlike the appalling picture of god painted by the apologists for Hellbound predestination, whose fault it apparently isn't that he chooses to only die for some and stuff the other poor blighters. If I see my two sons drowning through their own stupidity and have the means to save both yet choose to save only one, I would be rightly condemned, and so does the apology for god you have created in your mind, who is wholly inconsistent with the God I know and love from Scripture and my walk with Him.
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
I apologize, Matt. I did not mean to single you out. I meant that self-righteousness is something that plagues every human being, even the elect, as a result of a fallen nature. The only difference is that to the elect has been added a new nature while still on this plane called time.
As for the second part of your post, I have to respectfully disagree. You are not going by the Scriptures.
You started this thread with an assumption, from which you want all who will participate in the discussion, to proceed.
But, your later posts seem to point to your having adopted your assumption as truth already, and your assumption, that since God created man, He is also responsible for their fallen nature and total depravity, is simply not supported by Scripture.
As for the second part of your post, I have to respectfully disagree. You are not going by the Scriptures.
You started this thread with an assumption, from which you want all who will participate in the discussion, to proceed.
But, your later posts seem to point to your having adopted your assumption as truth already, and your assumption, that since God created man, He is also responsible for their fallen nature and total depravity, is simply not supported by Scripture.
Not quite. The unjust and, as I see it, consequently false god, stems from the combination of two assumptions, both of which CAN be adduced from Scripture if one so wishes:
1. God creates/ allows to be created (if you want to split hairs)men in a totally depraved state.
AND
2. He deliberately chooses to give only some of them the opportunity to get out of that state.
There lies the root of the injustice, and hence the inconsistency with, nay negation of God as revealed in Scripture; one of the above is consistent with a just God, both cannot be
Yours in Christ
Matt
1. God creates/ allows to be created (if you want to split hairs)men in a totally depraved state.
AND
2. He deliberately chooses to give only some of them the opportunity to get out of that state.
There lies the root of the injustice, and hence the inconsistency with, nay negation of God as revealed in Scripture; one of the above is consistent with a just God, both cannot be
Yours in Christ
Matt
Sripture:
1.And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (spoken by Jesus Himself - Mt. 10:28- to His disciples);
2. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (spoken by Jesus Himself Matthew 23:33);
3. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:23).
4. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(Rom. 1:18)
5. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (Romans 9:22)
God is as much a God of wrath as a God of love. His love is for His children, His wrath is for the children of disobedience.
Indeed, because they are your sons. Flesh of your flesh, blood of your blood, bones of your bones. And so would condemnation from God and from society fall on those who rape their own sons or daughters, or murder their own fathers and mothers.
But is God the Father of ALL mankind ? Where in the Scriptures does it say that all humankind are His children ? Show us on this board, Matt.
Where in the Bible does it say that God is the Father of all mankind ?
Your analogy will not work, you see. Every human being is morally responsible to God for the care and upkeep of their kin, yes.
But who are God's children ? Those whom He gave to His Son, who is the firstborn of many brethren (Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. )
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. - Galatians 4:16;
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 1 Thess 1:3
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. - 1 Thess 3:13
Was Paul writing to the whole world and telling all humankind that God is our Father ? Or was he telling christians in these churches that God is their Father.
No, your analogy about you being a father and how God should act to all men do not hold water, it is full of holes.