A test for intellectuals

[psalms109:31]

You are setting up a false dilemma, as if intelligence and wisdom is opposed to Christ. We don't give intelligence up any more than we give up our own blood even though we are bought by His. Neither do we stop using words even though we have come to believe in the Word.

Paul in his missionary endeavours and in his writings - inspired writings - used uninspired knowledge in his dealing with the lost. When we love God we are commanded to do so with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength.

I agree, but i wasn't putting up a "false dilemma"

Let me put it in other words, words are so limited, so hard to express that you can pick it apart and make it into something someone didn't say.

If my intelligent and wisdom i have is preventing me from coming, believing or trusting in Christ, i will give it up. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge without that, the wisdom is a false one.

 

[asterisktom]

I agree, but i wasn't putting up a "false dilemma"

Let me put it in other words, words are so limited, so hard to express that you can pick it apart and make it into something someone didn't say.

If my intelligent and wisdom i have is preventing me from coming, believing or trusting in Christ, i will give it up. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge without that, the wisdom is a false one.

Sorry for the mistake. I was taking your last sentence more at face value than you intended. Also I assumed that yours was the OP and you were continuing along those lines.

So let me just say that stilllearning that has given us a false dilemma. Of course, if he is indeed still learning there is reason to hope this too will change.

Take care.

 

[psalms109:31]

Wise in your eyes

Proverbs 3:7
Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:12
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Proverbs 26:16
The sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven men who answer discreetly.

Proverbs 28:11
A rich man may be wise in his own eyes, but a poor man who has discernment sees through him.

Ecclesiastes 2:14
The wise man has eyes in his head, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realize that the same fate overtakes them both.

Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.

There is a big difference between the wisdom that we see in our own eyes, compared to the wisdom from God.

 

[mcdirector]

It is not intelligence and wisdom keeping someone from Christ. It is the lack faith. Man can allow anything to keep him from accepting Christ.

Missionaries must learn languages. I am amazed at that. That intellectual pursuit is a gift from God. I do not have it (or at least it is at the very least painful to me), but were God to send me to Japan as He has John, I know He would equip me. I have other intellectual gifts. God has equipped me intellectually for the job to which He has called me.

 

[psalms109:31]

Wise

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust

i believe a big part of our teaching missing is teaching them to be meek and humble and trusting in the Lord even over their own understanding.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths ]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

 

[John of Japan]

It is not intelligence and wisdom keeping someone from Christ. It is the lack faith. Man can allow anything to keep him from accepting Christ.

Missionaries must learn languages. I am amazed at that. That intellectual pursuit is a gift from God. I do not have it (or at least it is at the very least painful to me), but were God to send me to Japan as He has John, I know He would equip me. I have other intellectual gifts. God has equipped me intellectually for the job to which He has called me.

Good point! :thumbs:

Learning a foreign language to a professional level requires a great amount of hard work to get knowledge and understanding, and then wisdom about how to use words, idioms, etc.

After graduating from Japanese language school (two years, full time), I tried to be friendly with a lady and her little boy, hoping to witness. The little boy was hiding behind Mommy, so I tried to say "He doesn't want to talk to me," but used the wrong combination of words and said, "He's a filthy little guy, isn't he?" She grabbed her boy's hand and stalked off! So I sought more wisdom with a dictionary, and when I gained the proper knowledge, I understood what I had said! :tonofbricks:

I especially admire missionaries among tribal peoples who have to learn a language in the raw, with no dictionaries or textbooks or grammars. Such a missionary will gain great amounts of knowledge the hard way--word by word. Then they need that knowledge plus wisdom and understanding to translate the Word of God.

 

[mcdirector]

OH my, speaking of intellectual pursuits . . .

from my post (which I did not catch until John quoted it):

(or at least it is at the very least painful to me)

*ahem* at most, one of those at leasts should be dropped! English isn't usually one of the languages I struggle with. sooooo I'll remove at least one: (or at least, it is painful to me) :tonofbricks:

 

[John of Japan]

OH my, speaking of intellectual pursuits . . .

from my post (which I did not catch until John quoted it):


*ahem* at most, one of those at leasts should be dropped! English isn't usually one of the languages I struggle with. sooooo I'll remove at least one: (or at least, it is painful to me) :tonofbricks:

Hey, it's okay to suppress your inner proof reader on the BB. :thumbs:

 

[stilllearning]

Hello mcdirector

Sorry for taking so long to respond, I have been away.

You said........

“It is not the intellectualism that God gave us that is the problem but the lack of faith.”

With this statement, you have hit the nail on the head.

The main issue of my OP, is not an indictment upon intellectualism or learning, as was made clear by the second Scripture used.

The fact is, when anyone lifts man’s wisdom(Colossians 2:8), above God’s Word, “faith” becomes the casualty.
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Therefore the “test for intellectuals”, is actually a challenge for all believers, to fully accept God’s Word as fact.

I am becoming a stickler in this area. Whenever I reference an Biblical event I am very careful to call it “an account”, instead of a “Bible story”.

Thank you mcdirector, for getting my point.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello asterisktom

You said.......

“So let me just say that stilllearning that has given us a false dilemma. Of course, if he is indeed still learning there is reason to hope this too will change.”

Could you please explain to me, how my OP, is setting up “a false dilemma”.

Thank you

 

[stilllearning]

Hello John

You said......

“No, the word "philosophy" means literally that: philosophy. It is a linguistic fallacy to assume that the origin of a word dictates its meaning ever after. So it is completely wrong to think the NT Greek word means "love of wosdom."
Paul wasn't opposing a "love of wisdom," which is actually something enjoined often in the Bible, but Greek philosophy, ways of thinking and acting invented by men: Stoicism, Epicurianism, Plato, Socrates, etc. To forbid a "love of wisdom" would be to fly in the face of the whole book of Proverbs, where wisdom (in a good way) occurs in 116 different verses out of only 915 in the book!”

I made it clear in the OP, that the “wisdom” that I was talking about was worldly wisdom, that is opposed to Christ.....
“.....after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Therefore it was misleading, for you to correct me for saying something that I did not say.

 

[John of Japan]

Hello John

You said......

I made it clear in the OP, that the “wisdom” that I was talking about was worldly wisdom, that is opposed to Christ.....
“.....after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

I'm sorry, it was not clear to me at all that what you were talking about was "worldly wisdom, that is opposed to Christ." Your simply quoting a verse without discussing what you think about the second half of the verse did not tell me that. It was confusing.

Therefore it was misleading, for you to correct me for saying something that I did not say.

I stand by my disagreement with your OP. I'll say it as clearly as I know how: the verse is not talking about "worldly wisdom" in general, as you say it is. It is talking about a specific subject, human philosophy--an organized system of thought, not what Grandma said that wasn't in the Bible.

Colosse was a Greek city, therefore the first thing the readers of Paul's epistle would think of was Greek philosophies--that is, well thought out views of the world and how to live. You can't properly take the New Testament term "philosophy" and make it mean "human wisdom" in general.

 

[asterisktom]

Hello asterisktom

You said.......

Could you please explain to me, how my OP, is setting up “a false dilemma”.

Thank you

In short, it is your equating "love of wisdom" with the worldly wisdom. Those are two different things.

Just so there is no misunderstanding: I agree totally with your seven points.

I believe that the real test has to do with belief vs. unbelief: Do we believe God's Word or not. People fall for "philosophy and vain deceit,"[that is] "after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world," not because of their love for wisdom, as you seem to imply, but because they do not believe the Word of God above all. A true love for God's Word necessarily stems from hearty love of God Himself. These things keep us from the world's wisdom.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi John

I warmly accept your apology, and I understand what you are getting at.

Although I agree, that when Paul used this particular word(“philosophy”), that he was referring to the Greek philosophy that the Saints in Colosse had been exposed to;
The entire verse, warns us all about the dangers of Worldly wisdom........
“.....after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Therefore, the folks in Colosse were able to apply it to their particular situation, while Saints for all ages could receive a warning about the love of any wisdom, that had it’s roots in a Christ rejecting world.

Am I on the right track...?

 

[stilllearning]

Hi asterisktom

Thank you for your quick response.

In response to your statement.......

“In short, it is your equating "love of wisdom" with the worldly wisdom. Those are two different things.”

....I went back for another look at my OP, and even though my intent for this post, was a “test of our faith”, the first line of my post, reveals a personal opinion that I had, that was wrong.........

“Recent threads have reminded me, of just how many people here, have a “love of wisdom”

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Just as my lack of sophistication should not lead people to jump to conclusions about me, so also the air of superiority that some people seem to have, does not give me a license to jump to conclusions about them.


Thanks for the insight.

 

[John of Japan]

Hi John

I warmly accept your apology, and I understand what you are getting at.

Although I agree, that when Paul used this particular word(“philosophy”), that he was referring to the Greek philosophy that the Saints in Colosse had been exposed to;
The entire verse, warns us all about the dangers of Worldly wisdom........
“.....after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Therefore, the folks in Colosse were able to apply it to their particular situation, while Saints for all ages could receive a warning about the love of any wisdom, that had it’s roots in a Christ rejecting world.

Am I on the right track...?

You look to be on the right track now. I believe we must clearly distinguish between the proper exegesis of a verse ("philosophy" as Greek philosophy) and its application: that we must reject all human wisdom "that had it's roots in a Christ rejecting world," as you well put it.

 

[asterisktom]

Hi asterisktom

Thank you for your quick response.

In response to your statement.......

....I went back for another look at my OP, and even though my intent for this post, was a “test of our faith”, the first line of my post, reveals a personal opinion that I had, that was wrong.........

--------------------------------------------------
Just as my lack of sophistication should not lead people to jump to conclusions about me, so also the air of superiority that some people seem to have, does not give me a license to jump to conclusions about them.


Thanks for the insight.

The very fact that I wasn't the only one to misunderstand your OP should encourage you to re-examine what exactly you were communicating (not what you intended to communicate).

I honestly don't understand your last sentence. Are you assuming I am having an air of superiority?