A Text for the Calvinist

[SavedByGrace]

Note Jesus' words in John 16:7-11

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

The Holy Spirit "convicts" the world, not just the elect, of their sins. But, sadly, it says that some of these do not belive in Jesus as their personal Saviour, and because of this are condemned.

As in John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." where the "Whoever", is the SAME as used in verse 16, "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

 

[SavedByGrace]

According to the Scriptures, the elect ( chosen ) were indeed ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).
They make every effort, because that is what the Lord tells them to do...

" Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" ( 2 Peter 1:10 ).

Falling from our steadfastness is a constant danger, and can lead believers into all kinds of doubts about the Lord and what He has done for us.
So, we strive to enter in to show that were are entering in.

It's our reasonable service:

" I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service." ( Romans 12:1 ).

2 Peter 2:10, note what it says, "IF ye do", ποιοῦντες, the present, continuance tense of the verb is used. What "if you don't do", which the words imply? Like Hebrews 3:14 tells us, "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end". "If" here is the Greek ἐάν "conditional particle", which denotes "uncertainty".

 

[George Antonios]

The Greek verb ἀγωνίζομαι, denoted "a struggle", and the kindred noun, ἀγωνία, agony, is used of Christ’s struggle in Gethsemane. I believe that this is used to show the seriousness of the "godly sorrow" that the sinner should have when seeking forgiveness from the Lord. It is ALL of Grace, but not in the sense that the sinner does nothing! God has His requirements, repentance and faith being what He wants from the sinner, before they can be saved

Salvation is not obtained the same way throughout all the dispensations, nor with the same concomitant blessings.

Concerning repentance, I did my best to go through as many verses and contexts as possible here:

 

[SavedByGrace]

Salvation is not obtained the same way throughout all the dispensations, nor with the same concomitant blessings.

Concerning repentance, I did my best to go through as many verses and contexts as possible here:

thanks for the video, is there a nutshell version?

 

[Yeshua1]

Ask a Hindu ascetic why he works so hard to achieve perfection.
Ask any of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that knock at your door why they work so hard.
Ask anyone at an AA meeting why they “make every effort”.
Ask a Hassidic Jew why he works so hard.

All seek the narrow path, but none of them have placed their trust in Jesus to carry them across the finish line as God the Father predestined.

(My point is that “striving for the goal” and “being drawn by God” are not incompatible and Luke does not teach that they are incompatible.)

Many will 'seek" to get to heaven, but its by their own way, by good works and own efforts!

 

[canadyjd]

Your reasoning is not correct. Here is the verse in its context, you will note the question asked, "“Lord, are there few who are saved?”, which is very clearly about salvation. Jesus then goes on to respond to this...

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

The “are saved” from verse 23 is past tense, it has already happened.

What do you make of verses 24+, where you have people knocking on the door, begging to get in but God refuses to allow them in. Are you saying these folks will be refused salvation who are begging for salvation?

Isn’t that contrary to the belief any can come and God will accept them?

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Many will 'seek" to get to heaven, but its by their own way, by good works and own efforts!

I think you are missing the force of the full verse and context. Jesus says to "strive", that is "to make every effort". what does He mean, if the sinner were to do nothing? This is pure Bible, not theology!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Many will 'seek" to get to heaven, but its by their own way, by good works and own efforts!

again you only quote from part of the verse, take the whole verse in context

 

[SavedByGrace]

The “are saved” from verse 23 is past tense, it has already happened

really? where did you this from? The Greek here is, σῳζόμενοι, which is, Verb, Present, Passive, Participle, Nominative, Plural, Masculine. where does it say "past tense"?

 

[canadyjd]

really? where did you this from? The Greek here is, σῳζόμενοι, which is, Verb, Present, Passive, Participle, Nominative, Plural, Masculine. where does it say "past tense"?

They are already saved in the present. They didn’t ask “are there only a few that will be saved.” Wouldn’t that require a future tense?

Since they are already saved in the present, Jesus telling them to “strive” is referring to perseverance, not initial salvation.

Again, please address the rest of the passage you quoted. These are people knocking at the door and begging God to get in, but God refused them entry.

If this is about initial salvation, you must believe God will refuse salvation to those begging for salvation.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

In Acts 13:48, I believe that contextually, the Greek verb τεταγμενοι, is to be understod in the "middle" (not passive) sense. This is because we read in verse 46, that the Jews (not God), "put it (the Gospel) from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life", which is "self-action".

I understand it differently, in the passive sense, when I read it.

Is there a particular reason I should go back to the Greek for my understanding of the text, when we as believers have the Holy Spirit to show us?
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
1 John 2:20-27.

 

[Dave G]

2 Thessalonians 2:13, is a disputed reading, as there is equally strong textual evidence for the reading, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" (ESV, NIV, CEV, GNT, ISV, etc), that is, the first converts in the region.

I don't dispute it, as to me it clearly says that the Thessalonian believers were chosen to salvation through two things...
sanctification of the Spirit,
and belief of the truth.

 

[Dave G]

Only God can save!.

Amen.
It seems that we both agree on who does the actual saving.

Your understanding of Acts 10:35 is flawed, as it is based you theology rather than what the context actually says.

Mine is flawed?
OK, I'll accept that as your opinion.

But let me ask you a question if I may...

I wasn't aware that you had the authority to tell me, one way or the other, that my understanding of the scriptures is flawed... but I can understand where you're coming from.

From my perspective, I'm willing to tell you how I understand it, and we can compare notes if you wish, but if you're going to step in where only the Lord is allowed ( as my Teacher ), shouldn't you consider re-phrasing the comment?

 

[Dave G]

Salvation is all of grace. so no need for the hell-bound sinner to REPENT?

To me, you're putting the cart before the horse...
I see that repentance has to be granted to someone by the Lord, due to our rebellious and willful condition as God-hating men:

Acts of the Apostles 11:18.
2 Timothy 2:25.

While it is a necessary evidence, it does not determine who is saved and who is not...
It reflects who is saved and who is not.

Genuine repentance comes from a changed heart, not a willful and obstinate heart of stone that refuses to seek the Lord.
That is my understanding of it.

 

[tyndale1946]

From the Youtube comments I think it is Stephen Owen.

Thanks... Well then maybe he had a distant ancestor, that great Puritan Theologian author... John Owen, who wrote The Holy Spirit, which I'm reading and studying now... Ummmm?... Brother Glen

 

[Van]

Luke 13:24 says,

“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able"

It here clearly says that the sinner was to "make every effort", where the Greek word, "ἀγωνίζομαι", means to "contend, struggle, to endeavor with strenuous zeal", etc. to get into heaven. Why the need for this, if as Reformed theology teaches that only the "elect", who have been "preordained" to eternal life, even before the world was created, can ever be saved? If the "elect" have their destination preordained for them, then surely there is no need to "contend or struggle" to get into heaven!. "contend or struggle" means that they have to DO something, which means "Justification by faith alone (which is nowhere taught in the Bible)", is wrong!

I see we are at 4 pages, and so this response only addressees the OP, and does not address any subsequent claims.

The first truth to jump off the page is "many will seek to enter" which contradicts the false doctrine that the fallen are unable to seek God at any time.

Next, the false doctrine of "irresistible grace" is shown to be bogus, as many of those striving are not able to enter.

The "contend and struggle" refers to people going "all in" for Jesus. If you only go in at the shallow end of the pool, like soil #2, you will not have your faith credited as righteousness. OTOH, if you go in at the deep end of the pool, but wear a life jacket of worldly treasures, like soil #3, your faith also will not be credited. I expect all of us who have committed our lives to Christ know of the struggle.

Finally, justification by faith, if unpacked properly, is a valid doctrine. How are we justified? When God places us spiritually into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration (we are born anew) and the circumcision of Christ, where what God held against us is taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. So we were justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by anything we did, and we received that justification when God placed us spiritually into Christ, based on God alone crediting our faith as righteousness. So when you fully unpack the doctrine, it is spot on.

 

[Yeshua1]

I understand it differently, in the passive sense, when I read it.

Is there a particular reason I should go back to the Greek for my understanding of the text, when we as believers have the Holy Spirit to show us?
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
1 John 2:20-27.

The Holy Spirit inspired in the Koine Greek the very words that were wrote down to us!

 

[SavedByGrace]

They are already saved in the present. They didn’t ask “are there only a few that will be saved.” Wouldn’t that require a future tense?

Since they are already saved in the present, Jesus telling them to “strive” is referring to perseverance, not initial salvation.

Again, please address the rest of the passage you quoted. These are people knocking at the door and begging God to get in, but God refused them entry.

If this is about initial salvation, you must believe God will refuse salvation to those begging for salvation.

peace to you

not really. that be saved] Literally, “who are being saved,” i.e. who are in the way of salvation.. The question is "will there many who will be saved" in the final salvation of the lost. There is no evidence from the context that the person who asked the question, was themself saved. We must not read our theology into what the Bible actually says

 

[SavedByGrace]

Amen.
It seems that we both agree on who does the actual saving.

Mine is flawed?
OK, I'll accept that as your opinion.

But let me ask you a question if I may...

I wasn't aware that you had the authority to tell me, one way or the other, that my understanding of the scriptures is flawed... but I can understand where you're coming from.

From my perspective, I'm willing to tell you how I understand it, and we can compare notes if you wish, but if you're going to step in where only the Lord is allowed ( as my Teacher ), shouldn't you consider re-phrasing the comment?

My authority is from the plain Word of God, the Holy Bible. I don't presume anything because I don't belong to an camp. the Reformed/Calvinist, etc. Your reasoning for Acts 13:48 is not contextual, as you disregard the context which includes verse 46, where the actions of the Jews are evidentely self., this would make what the Gentiles did in verse 48, also self, though the Holy Spirit did the inward convicting.

 

[Yeshua1]

The “are saved” from verse 23 is past tense, it has already happened.

What do you make of verses 24+, where you have people knocking on the door, begging to get in but God refuses to allow them in. Are you saying these folks will be refused salvation who are begging for salvation?

Isn’t that contrary to the belief any can come and God will accept them?

peace to you

They all came knocking at the door due to the Lord giving to them ears to hear and hearts to respond!