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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SavedByGrace, Sep 15, 2020.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Note Jesus' words in John 16:7-11

    "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

    The Holy Spirit "convicts" the world, not just the elect, of their sins. But, sadly, it says that some of these do not belive in Jesus as their personal Saviour, and because of this are condemned.

    As in John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." where the "Whoever", is the SAME as used in verse 16, "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"
     
    #61 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 2:10, note what it says, "IF ye do", ποιοῦντες, the present, continuance tense of the verb is used. What "if you don't do", which the words imply? Like Hebrews 3:14 tells us, "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end". "If" here is the Greek ἐάν "conditional particle", which denotes "uncertainty".
     
    #62 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Salvation is not obtained the same way throughout all the dispensations, nor with the same concomitant blessings.

    Concerning repentance, I did my best to go through as many verses and contexts as possible here:

     
    #63 George Antonios, Sep 16, 2020
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the video, is there a nutshell version?
     
    #64 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Many will 'seek" to get to heaven, but its by their own way, by good works and own efforts!
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Sep 16, 2020
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The “are saved” from verse 23 is past tense, it has already happened.

    What do you make of verses 24+, where you have people knocking on the door, begging to get in but God refuses to allow them in. Are you saying these folks will be refused salvation who are begging for salvation?

    Isn’t that contrary to the belief any can come and God will accept them?

    peace to you
     
    #66 canadyjd, Sep 16, 2020
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  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I think you are missing the force of the full verse and context. Jesus says to "strive", that is "to make every effort". what does He mean, if the sinner were to do nothing? This is pure Bible, not theology!
     
    #67 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    again you only quote from part of the verse, take the whole verse in context
     
    #68 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    really? where did you this from? The Greek here is, σῳζόμενοι, which is, Verb, Present, Passive, Participle, Nominative, Plural, Masculine. where does it say "past tense"?
     
    #69 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    They are already saved in the present. They didn’t ask “are there only a few that will be saved.” Wouldn’t that require a future tense?

    Since they are already saved in the present, Jesus telling them to “strive” is referring to perseverance, not initial salvation.

    Again, please address the rest of the passage you quoted. These are people knocking at the door and begging God to get in, but God refused them entry.

    If this is about initial salvation, you must believe God will refuse salvation to those begging for salvation.

    peace to you
     
    #70 canadyjd, Sep 16, 2020
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I understand it differently, in the passive sense, when I read it.

    Is there a particular reason I should go back to the Greek for my understanding of the text, when we as believers have the Holy Spirit to show us?
    1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
    1 John 2:20-27.
     
    #71 Dave G, Sep 16, 2020
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I don't dispute it, as to me it clearly says that the Thessalonian believers were chosen to salvation through two things...
    sanctification of the Spirit,
    and belief of the truth.
     
    #72 Dave G, Sep 16, 2020
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Amen.
    It seems that we both agree on who does the actual saving.
    Mine is flawed?
    OK, I'll accept that as your opinion.

    But let me ask you a question if I may...

    I wasn't aware that you had the authority to tell me, one way or the other, that my understanding of the scriptures is flawed... but I can understand where you're coming from.

    From my perspective, I'm willing to tell you how I understand it, and we can compare notes if you wish, but if you're going to step in where only the Lord is allowed ( as my Teacher ), shouldn't you consider re-phrasing the comment? ;)
     
    #73 Dave G, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    To me, you're putting the cart before the horse...
    I see that repentance has to be granted to someone by the Lord, due to our rebellious and willful condition as God-hating men:

    Acts of the Apostles 11:18.
    2 Timothy 2:25.

    While it is a necessary evidence, it does not determine who is saved and who is not...
    It reflects who is saved and who is not.

    Genuine repentance comes from a changed heart, not a willful and obstinate heart of stone that refuses to seek the Lord.
    That is my understanding of it.
     
    #74 Dave G, Sep 16, 2020
  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks... Well then maybe he had a distant ancestor, that great Puritan Theologian author... John Owen, who wrote The Holy Spirit, which I'm reading and studying now... Ummmm?... Brother Glen:)
     
    #75 tyndale1946, Sep 16, 2020
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see we are at 4 pages, and so this response only addressees the OP, and does not address any subsequent claims.

    The first truth to jump off the page is "many will seek to enter" which contradicts the false doctrine that the fallen are unable to seek God at any time.

    Next, the false doctrine of "irresistible grace" is shown to be bogus, as many of those striving are not able to enter.

    The "contend and struggle" refers to people going "all in" for Jesus. If you only go in at the shallow end of the pool, like soil #2, you will not have your faith credited as righteousness. OTOH, if you go in at the deep end of the pool, but wear a life jacket of worldly treasures, like soil #3, your faith also will not be credited. I expect all of us who have committed our lives to Christ know of the struggle.

    Finally, justification by faith, if unpacked properly, is a valid doctrine. How are we justified? When God places us spiritually into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration (we are born anew) and the circumcision of Christ, where what God held against us is taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. So we were justified by the faithfulness of Christ, and not by anything we did, and we received that justification when God placed us spiritually into Christ, based on God alone crediting our faith as righteousness. So when you fully unpack the doctrine, it is spot on.
     
    #76 Van, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Spirit inspired in the Koine Greek the very words that were wrote down to us!
     
    #77 Yeshua1, Sep 16, 2020
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    not really. that be saved] Literally, “who are being saved,” i.e. who are in the way of salvation.. The question is "will there many who will be saved" in the final salvation of the lost. There is no evidence from the context that the person who asked the question, was themself saved. We must not read our theology into what the Bible actually says
     
    #78 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    My authority is from the plain Word of God, the Holy Bible. I don't presume anything because I don't belong to an camp. the Reformed/Calvinist, etc. Your reasoning for Acts 13:48 is not contextual, as you disregard the context which includes verse 46, where the actions of the Jews are evidentely self., this would make what the Gentiles did in verse 48, also self, though the Holy Spirit did the inward convicting.
     
    #79 SavedByGrace, Sep 16, 2020
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They all came knocking at the door due to the Lord giving to them ears to hear and hearts to respond!
     
    #80 Yeshua1, Sep 16, 2020
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