A thread in Baptist Theology and Bible Study Forum. Or Fuller v. Gill

[Scott Downey]

Fuller even clearly says your believing faith is the gift of God.
I actually dont comprehend how any hyper Calvinist could assume to know someone is not elect to be saved and therefore you dont exhort such to repent and believe as only God can know that and they are not Him. That seems quite a stretch and likely more just theoretical theology and not practical theology regarding preaching the gospel to 'every creature', which is what Christ said to do.

In one very insightful text, a review of two sermons by a hyper-Calvinist by the name of W.W. Horne, Fuller writes this (Works, III, 583):

“In calling the doctrine defended by Mr. Horne false Calvinism I have not miscalled it. In proof of this, I appeal to the writings of that great reformer, and of the ablest defenders of his system in later times—of all indeed who have been called Calvinists till within a hundred years. Were you to read many of Calvin’s sermons, without knowing who was the author, you would be led, from the ideas you appear at present to entertain, to pronounce him an Arminian; neither would Goodwin, nor Owen, nor Charnock, nor Flavel, nor Bunyan, escape the charge. These men believed and preached the doctrines of grace; but not in such a way as to exclude exhortations to the unconverted to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. The doctrine which you call Calvinism (but which, in reality, is Antinomianism) is as opposite to that of the Reformers, puritans, and nonconformists, as it is to that of the apostles.

We do not ask you to relinquish the doctrine of salvation by grace alone: so far from it, were you to do so we would, on that account, have no fellowship with you. We have no doubt of justification being wholly on account of the righteousness of Jesus; nor of faith, wherever it exists, being the free gift of God. …But we ask you to admit other principles, equally true, and equally important as they are; principles taught by the same inspired writers, and which, therefore, must be consistent with them.”

 

[Yeshua1]

Fuller The Non-Calvinist?

Fuller is Calvinist in his theology as far I have read about him. The videos are pretty long and complex to follow and likely influenced by the presenter's bias.
He seems not to be Arminian at all.

In the second edition of Fuller’s The Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation, he defined his discussion by affirming that “there is no dispute about the doctrine of election, or any of the discriminating doctrines of grace. . . it is granted that none ever did or ever will believe in Christ but those who are chosen of God from eternity.”

Fuller reasoned very closely concerning the certain efficacy of the death of Christ for some and not for others. One part of his argument he proposed as a prodosis and apodosis: “If the doctrine of eternal, personal, and unconditional election be a truth, that of a special design in the death of Christ must necessarily follow.” He then placed before Taylor a small part of the Scriptures and arguments which “appear to me [Fuller] to prove the doctrine of election.” He then concluded that that part of mankind spoken of in these Scriptures and denominated as chosen of God and given of the Father were so “because God eternally purposed in himself, that they should believe and be saved.”

Paul’s interaction with his theoretical objector in Romans 9 demonstrates that “the doctrine maintained by the apostle was that of the absolute sovereignty of God, in having mercy on whom he would, and giving up whom he would to hardness of heart.” The third point of connection with election is to “show the certain success of Christ’s undertaking, as it were in defiance of unbelievers, who set at naught his gracious invitations.” Without election of sovereign grace the universal call would be universally unsuccessful. For this reason, the stone that the builders rejected has become the head of the corner, for all that the Father has given to the Son will come to him.

Fuller died on May 7, 1815. Nine days before, he dictated a letter stating, “I have preached and written much against the abuse of the doctrine of grace; but that doctrine is all my salvation and all my desire. I have no other hope, than from salvation by mere sovereign, efficacious grace, through the atonement of my Lord and Saviour.” On that same afternoon he said to a deacon visiting him, “If I am saved, it will be by great and sovereign grace—by great and sovereign grace.” The next day he observed, “I have done a little for God; but all that I have done needs forgiveness. I trust alone in sovereign grace and mercy.”

he did not hold to eternal justification, while Gill did!

 

[Scott Downey]

he did not hold to eternal justification, while Gill did!

Interesting, though what Fuller wrote in my post #39, how could he not believe in eternal justification as God determined in himself who would believe and who would not.
that seems very inconsistant.

Was it perhaps more along he was referring to the apostasy of (false) believers who had priorly professed their faith? Scripture does support the concept of apostasizers. So that they would have been thought of as true believers and saved by the people around them, yet fell away, showing they had not been born of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Interesting, though what Fuller wrote in my post #39, how could he not believe in eternal justification as God determined in himself who would believe and who would not.
that seems very inconsistant.

Was it perhaps more along he was referring to the apostasy of (false) believers who had priorly professed their faith? Scripture does support the concept of apostasizers. So that they would have been thought of as true believers and saved by the people around them, yet fell away, showing they had not been born of God.

Both held to election being the work of God determing that a lost sinner would come to believe in Jesus, but Gill would hold that one gets to heaven regardless of being "saved", if elected, while Fuller would have seen the necessity of being born again!

 

[Scott Downey]

Both held to election being the work of God determing that a lost sinner would come to believe in Jesus, but Gill would hold that one gets to heaven regardless of being "saved", if elected, while Fuller would have seen the necessity of being born again!

John Gill and the Charge of Hyper-Calvinism « Biographia Evangelica
I noticed this here, this would take a lot of time to study to identify all the subtleties, and it mentions HALL and school of latter years, so you know what happens, other people enter in and modify the ideas of those who came before them, maybe in negative ways yet claiming those before them fully supported their own later views.

Gill’s doctrine of eternal justification was rejected by the Fuller-Hall school of later years as being a product of a Hyper-Calvinistic, Particular Baptist era in which Gill’s teaching had ‘almost oracular quality’.

Jesus said you must be born again, so obviously an elect person will be born again, will hear the gospel, somehow be taught by the Holy Spirit and believe in Christ. There will not be any elect who fall outside the pattern. And all elect get saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

John Gill and the Charge of Hyper-Calvinism « Biographia Evangelica
I noticed this here, this would take a lot of time to study to identify all the subtleties, and it mentions HALL and school of latter years, so you know what happens, other people enter in and modify the ideas of those who came before them, maybe in negative ways yet claiming those before them fully supported their own later views.

Gill’s doctrine of eternal justification was rejected by the Fuller-Hall school of later years as being a product of a Hyper-Calvinistic, Particular Baptist era in which Gill’s teaching had ‘almost oracular quality’.

Hyper cals hold to the elect being justified and saved by grace of God even if Jesus not heard nor received, as main difference is that saved in this life benefit from salvation and its fruit, while others just in eternity and heaven!

 

[Scott Downey]

1 Timothy 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hyper cals hold to the elect being justified and saved by grace of God even if Jesus not heard nor received, as main difference is that saved in this life benefit from salvation and its fruit, while others just in eternity and heaven!

Purely theoretical, does never happen. What they are saying is God is insufficient to teach to them the gospel by His Spirit.
God works just like Christ says according to the pattern he has established.
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You wont come to Christ unless this happens to you and there is no salvation outside of coming to Christ, if your elect you going to hear somehow the message and believe in Christ.
The Spirit draws you to Christ, if elect all of the elect will be drawn to Christ and believe. Now lets say there is no preacher, but you read the scripture, you can be saved, you do not have to hear a human preacher, the word is preaching to you the message. You could see a video or movie and be saved. Maybe you can have a dream and He will lead you to other Christians and you will be saved. To be saved you believe in your heart the God raised Christ from the dead, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. (like tell the world aloud somehow, it is communicated evidence of your faith)

 

[Yeshua1]

Purely theoretical, does never happen. What they are saying is God is insufficient to teach to them the gospel by His Spirit.
God works just like Christ says according to the pattern he has established.
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You wont come to Christ unless this happens to you and there is no salvation outside of coming to Christ, if your elect you going to hear somehow the message and believe in Christ.
The Spirit draws you to Christ, if elect all will be drawn to Christ and believe. Now lets say there is no preacher, but you read the scripture, you can be saved, you do not have to hear a human preacher, the word is preaching to you the message. You could see a video or movie and be saved. Maybe you can have a dream and He will lead you to other Christians and you will be saved. To be saved you believe in your heart the God raised Christ from the dead, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. (like tell the world aloud somehow, it is communicated evidence of your faith)

My good friend and I once visited a local baptist church out of town, and noticed NO missionary boards or missionaries highlighted, nor even in their budget, was told God will save His own!

 

[Scott Downey]

My good friend and I once visited a local baptist church out of town, and noticed NO missionary boards or missionaries highlighted, nor even in their budget, was told God will save His own!

Ok, and yes He will. That church is obviously drawing on other's missionary work or their own fertility as in having kids to grow.
And the idea is not really wrong. The apostles preached the word in various cities, and churches formed. It just wont happen that no one is going out as a missionary somewhere, or being a witness in the community even from such a church. And even though there are so many different churches, we are all of one body of Christ, with each one doing some part. If it is Christ's church, then He has placed in the body people to do various things. If it gets out of whack, then God is able to whack it back into the shape He wants.

If those people are in a cult and not His church, then it does not matter to the body of Christ, cause it is not part of His body. It is a church of satan masquerading as a church of Christ. God is in control of things that happen.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok, and yes He will. That church is obviously drawing on other's missionary work or their own fertility as in having kids to grow.
And the idea is not really wrong. The apostles preached the word in various cities, and churches formed. It just wont happen that no one is going out as a missionary somewhere, or being a witness in the community even from such a church. And even though there are so many different churches, we are all of one body of Christ, with each one doing some part. If it is Christ's church, then He has placed in the body people to do various things. If it gets out of whack, then God is able to whack it back into the shape He wants.

They though had NO outreach being supported into missions fields, and that is not biblical !

 

[Scott Downey]

They though had NO outreach being supported into missions fields, and that is not biblical !

So did you tell them that?
And did you then leave it up to God to fix His church?
I have been through that also in my local church, not the same issue though.
I cant change anyone, believe me I have tried, God has to do that work. God knows what He is doing.
Many of Paul's letters dealt with various problems in churches that needed correcting. the ones that did not correct their behavior failed, got judged, people got sick and died. It gets very complex doesn't it when dealing with people.

 

[Yeshua1]

So did you tell them that?
And did you then leave it up to God to fix His church?
I have been through that also in my local church, not the same issue though.
I cant change anyone, believe me I have tried, God has to do that work. God knows what He is doing.
Many of Paul's letters dealt with various problems in churches that needed correcting. the ones that did not correct their behavior failed, got judged, people got sick and died. It gets very complex doesn't it when dealing with people.

We were visiting, so just smiled and just kept moving!