a thread started - so here it is

[agedman]

On another thread Benjamin stated:

"Oh, I think you are totally full of mud in your purely rhetorical old hat responses that don't use one scripture in your so called "refute" of the scriptures I already posted.

I'm busy now, but I might try to get back to some of your more obvious mistakes such as declaring inability to seek God later. Although, shouldn't be highjacking this tread with all that; why don't you open another tread, I'd be glad to post you a few scriptures to the contrary which show God commands us to seek Him and how that command is not just His idea pulling our pre-determined legs."


So, here is the tread and the offer to post in support of his view to his heart's content.

Remember, Benjamin, you are to support your view with scriptures that are in the context of surrounding verses. Not just pull them out of context like I showed you certainly did.

Why don't you start with scriptures that would support the ability of anybody, anywhere, at anytime, in any condition to seek Christ without Christ first having placed the need of salvation into that person's heart.

In doing so, be sure to refute such verses as:

found in Matthew:

Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


Which is also found in Luke:

Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

John put it this way:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Paul stated:

1 Cor 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Don't hold your breath while you wait agedman!

 

[Iconoclast]

Remember, Benjamin, you are to support your view with scriptures that are in the context of surrounding verses. Not just pull them out of context like I showed you certainly did

:thumbs::applause::thumbs: Yes you did..each verse was out of context,so in reality they were not according to biblical teaching.
The thing is...these same verses might be repeated here as he has nothing else.....

 

[Benjamin]

In doing so, be sure to refute such verses as:

:laugh:
Let’s get something straight here, Mr. Question Beggar, I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures. In this case how your determinist interpretations lead to a conclusion that the light of the Word of Christ I spoke of in the other tread is being portrayed by your doctrine as only darkness for all but the pre-selected few. So why don’t you start by explaining how your scriptures prove the Gospel message is only for those who have been pre-determined to be able to hear the truth and all others have been pre-determined to be blind to them and without hope because those Words are given in darkness. Then after my workout tonight and a few other things I got to do I’ll come back and fix you up.

 

[Iconoclast]

:laugh:
Let’s get something straight here, Mr. Question Beggar, I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures. In this case how your determinist interpretations lead to a conclusion that the light of the Word of Christ I spoke of in the other tread is being portrayed by your doctrine as only darkness for all but the pre-selected few. So why don’t you start by explaining how your scriptures prove the Gospel message is only for those who have been pre-determined to be able to hear the truth and all others have been pre-determined to be blind to them and without hope because those Words are given in darkness. Then after my workout tonight and a few other things I got to do I’ll come back and fix you up.

[QUOTEthose who say God’s light is full of darkness for others.

][/QUOTE]

Yes...you mean like Moses....

Exodus 14:20
And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

When it comes to the grace of God.....Moses says that God gave light to His people....and yet the same light was darkness to the unbelievers....
same with Divine truth...some welcome it ..some remain in darkness.

To speak against the truth of God's electing grace does not show any evidence of scriptural light.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes indeed ...it attracted you.
those who say God’s light is full of darkness for others.



Yes...you mean like Moses....

Exodus 14:20
And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

When it comes to the grace of God.....Moses says that God gave light to His people....and yet the same light was darkness to the unbelievers....
same with Divine truth...some welcome it ..some remain in darkness.

To speak against the truth of God's electing grace does not show any evidence of scriptural light.

Excellent points and wonderful insight. Perhaps Benjamin should learn Coptic, or perhaps he speaks it fluently? If I'm over in Egypt to see the pyramids, I'll look him up. He'll be the guy "in the dark." :laugh: :thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

"I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures." (Benjamin)

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

"I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures." (Benjamin)

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Which is a cute way of saying that a person gets saved by exercising his own free will and faith in jesus, as he is the one thatsaves himself, as its NOT the Will of God that saved him, but will of man!


Again, subtle denying the biblical truth that we are dead in our sins, not free in ourselves to even decided for Christ, and that ONLY God Himself can save a wretch like me, as I was once lost, and God found me!

 

[Benjamin]

The post sparked agedman to take offense, reply, and brought forth claims that he has unquestionably refuted it after trying to twist a few scriptures around to do so:

Just beware of false doctrines:


(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


This is the message of the Gospel we are to preach:


(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


Yet, some attempt to preach the Gospel message, the Word, the Light that God put into the world is full of darkness and despair for those poor non-preselected creatures who must remain ignorant and not have the real ability to know the truth of God’s love and are without hope to ever receive the promise.


But Jesus/the Light/the Word delivers the promise of the “Good News” differently than those who would take joy and pride in broadcasting their perceived intellectualism through using dark systematic principles designed to explain to the seeker that they may not have been “pre-selected. (There have even been examples here on this board of some who would quickly be in the face of someone he were witnessing to if that person would scoff at his message and would in spite quickly turn the message into lie and proclaim to that person, that “scoffer” who would dare speak back to him, that they may not be one of the pre-selected few.) That person knows who he is. Beware of that those who would tell the lies of the devil and proclaim to others that they may have no ability to see the light, or even the ability to respond to the true and genuine promise God gave to all His creatures.


(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Don’t walk in the vanity of those who would get so wrapped up into a man-made doctrine that they can not see the truth of God’s loving Nature, His genuine promise being to all His creatures, and would think of themselves as having to be “specially” pre-selected and determined to believe rather than having the God given volition to receive faith because of love of the truth; those who say God’s light is full of darkness for others.


(Eph 4:17) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
(Eph 4:18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

(Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.
(Eph 4:28) Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
(Eph 4:29) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
(Eph 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Don’t buy into a theological system where you can plainly and truthfully see that many strive to twist the truth of God’s genuine loving promise to all His creatures into “something else” that is full of darkness.

The above post was originally meant to back up a question to "asleysdad" how or if he would be honestly presenting the Gospel to his children as he knew it:

If you are in consideration of buying into the doctrine of determinism then I suggest you honestly and prayerfully ask yourself (a loving father) the following question concerning the Gospel: When I put my children to bed at night am I going to tell lies to them and tell them that Jesus loves them and died for them or am I going to tell them that I hope that they are one of the pre-selected few?

 

[convicted1]

Which is a cute way of saying that a person gets saved by exercising his own free will and faith in jesus, as he is the one thatsaves himself, as its NOT the Will of God that saved him, but will of man!

Awwww, shucks, you ratted us out. Shame on you Brother. Don't go around and tell everyone....shhhh! :laugh: Yep that's the way salvation works. God asks us if its okay for Him to save us, and we then have every right to say yea or nay(tongue firmly in cheek).

Again, subtle denying the biblical truth that we are dead in our sins, not free in ourselves to even decided for Christ, and that ONLY God Himself can save a wretch like me, as I was once lost, and God found me!

God resiseth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. When He calls, if we won't humble ourselves, He will pass us by.

 

[Benjamin]

When it comes to the grace of God.....Moses says that God gave light to His people....

1. Why am I not surprised that you would jump at the chance to proclaim the Gospel is not a genuine offer to all mankind? Because, it is your typical MO that I mentioned you do just a week ago. That’s why.

2. That temporary literal cloud from the OT has nothing to do with the Gospel being withheld spoken of in the NT but was for the purpose of protection of God’s people. Nice try.

 

[Benjamin]

Excellent points and wonderful insight.

Put your pompoms away; Iconoclast' shows no “insight” at all, it doesn’t even apply to the subject of the discussion.

 

[Benjamin]

Remember, Benjamin, you are to support your view with scriptures that are in the context of surrounding verses. Not just pull them out of context like I showed you certainly did.

Originally Posted by Benjamin
Just beware of false doctrines:

(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Originally Posted by agedman:
Perhaps you are mixing the education of the believer with the salvation of the believer. Paul is discussing what the results of the believer being educated and schooled. He is NOT discussing salvation.

I was speaking to a professed believer about a bout being schooled in a false doctrine. Nothing out of context there.

Originally Posted by Benjamin
This is the message of the Gospel we are to preach:

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Originally Posted by agedman:
And this is true from the foundations of the world through the ages and on through eternity - for even in eternity there is no sun or moon, but Christ that gives all light.

Here is context for you: (Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

You’ve shown nothing out of context here.

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Yet, some attempt to preach the Gospel message, the Word, the Light that God put into the world is full of darkness and despair ... Beware of that those who would tell the lies of the devil and proclaim to others that they may have no ability to see the light, or even the ability to respond to the true and genuine promise God gave to all His creatures.

Originally Posted by agedman
You have no right to dispute the Scriptures. It is the Scriptures that clearly state that the natural man, unsaved man, unbeliever,... are blind, intellectually darkened, and cannot even be aware much less receive the things of God.

It is you that are disputing the scripture I presented. See above. You’ve shown nothing out context here.

Originally Posted by Benjamin
(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Originally Posted by agedman
As has been shown, ALL, always means ALL!

Jesus did not lie. However, you want to place all in a state of capable of self determination to receive or reject Christ. That isn't the case. What Jesus said is accurate. ALL, even the most vile wicked person that has ever lived, will be drawn to Christ!

BUT the word "draw" also mean to be drug; sort of like a fish on a fish hook. So, YES all will be "drawn" for ALL will bow and acknowledge Jesus as Lord. But not ALL will be "drawn" to Christ the same way.

First, I have no disagreement that all will be given light, but that promise would mean nothing if that light were not sufficient for salvation, nor would the promise be genuine, and without responsibility of the creature to respond to that light what would God’s judgment be based on???

Second, your determinist definition of man being forcibly drawn while kicking and screaming while you claim the specially selected few drawn differently in that way sounds more like rape that God’s plan of salvation.

And you’ve shown nothing out of context here.

Originally Posted by Benjamin
(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Originally Posted by agedman
These verses are taken out of context and have little to do with your supporting your view of salvation and "all" being as you would determine.

My view is that the light is sufficient for all because Christ gave Himself for whosoever will believe in love of the truth. Your erroneous claim of being out of context is doesn’t even make the least bit of sense.

Originally Posted by Benjamin
(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Originally Posted by agedman
The problem here is that you want to place the natural man as "willing." But that isn't supported by the Scriptures.

All men have free will and the responsibility to respond and that ability is certainly supported by the scriptures.

Originally Posted by agedman
"NO MAN SEEKS GOD." is as valid a scripture today as it was thousands of years ago.

God’s command for man to seek Him is not an empty statement. God does not lie, never did!

(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

(2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

(2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

(2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

(2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

(Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by agedman

"Whosoever will" means one who delights, or is inclined, or determined. In this case it is used as one already saved. Only the saved can come to the water of life and drink. You neglected to consider the state of the setting of the place of that water. Please do not forget that, unlike the modern and in the past, the the bride and the spirit will not prevent anyone from coming but rejoice in that no matter the case there are no racial, physical, station, or gender conditions for fellowship and that will prevent any believer from that river. BUT NEVER is this river offered to the unsaved! Read the context - the verse or two before state clearly that THIS IS TO THE CHURCH!!!!

Your claim that whosoever will means whosoever is determined is false, begging the question, unsupported and fallacious. Context? Those that do His commandments have the right to take of the tree of life and salvation is never of works, which leaves one thing…coming by faith (not pre-election selection; remember that).

(Rev 22:14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Originally Posted by agedman
The UNSAVED won't ever even get to see this beautiful sight!

A good reason to believe in love of the truth instead of making excuses about having to be forced to believe.

And you have failed miserably to show that verse used out of context with your fallacious claim.

Originally Posted by Benjamin
Don’t walk in the vanity of those who would get so wrapped up into a man-made doctrine that they can not see the truth of God’s loving Nature, His genuine promise being to all His creatures, and would think of themselves as having to be “specially” pre-selected and determined to believe rather than having the God given volition to receive faith because of love of the truth; those who say God’s light is full of darkness for others.

Originally Posted by agedman
Again, unsupported rant.

I think not:
(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

(Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Don’t buy into a theological system where you can plainly and truthfully see that many strive to twist the truth of God’s genuine loving promise to all His creatures into “something else” that is full of darkness.

Originally Posted by agedman
God's genuine loving promise to all his creatures????????

the snake, the whale, the snail, the amoeba...

Is this actually what you hold to be scriptural?

The world is under condemnation. It and all the heavens will pass in a terrible heat.

Rhetoric, not worth a response.

Originally Posted by agedman
Let's review:


No one is saying that Christ does not bring light to the darkened world. But, so do believers - "Ye, are the light of the world..."

The light spoken of in John1 is the Word of God which bring all men the Gospel.

No one is saying that Christ doesn't draw - but that is the point - HE does the drawing - NOT man determination.

Begging the question.

No one is saying that education of the believer is unimportant - not when Paul says that we are to filter everything spoken in the assembly through the Scriptures, and as John said, to try the spirits to see if they be of God.

Paul didn’t say to filter everything through Calvinist determinist glasses though, and the spirit of God is far from having to drag men to their salvation.

No one is saying that witnessing and testimony of Christ isn't good - not when the Scriptures clearly state the opposite.

Strawman.

BUT, what you lend as truth about what the Scriptures state has clearly been shown inaccurate. Therefore, that inaccuracy leads one to a false conclusion, which you have reached.

You’ve shown nothing but delusions of victories backed by your own false conclusion.

Should you consider any part of what I posted to you as false, show me by scriptures where I am mistaken, just as I have taken the time to refute your post.

You’ve shown nothing being taken out of context as you boastfully claim and my original reply stands.

 

[convicted1]

I was speaking to a professed believer about a bout being schooled in a false doctrine. Nothing out of context there.




Here is context for you: (Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

You’ve shown nothing out of context here.






It is you that are disputing the scripture I presented. See above. You’ve shown nothing out context here.





First, I have no disagreement that all will be given light, but that promise would mean nothing if that light were not sufficient for salvation, nor would the promise be genuine, and without responsibility of the creature to respond to that light what would God’s judgment be based on???

Second, your determinist definition of man being forcibly drawn while kicking and screaming while you claim the specially selected few drawn differently in that way sounds more like rape that God’s plan of salvation.

And you’ve shown nothing out of context here.




My view is that the light is sufficient for all because Christ gave Himself for whosoever will believe in love of the truth. Your erroneous claim of being out of context is doesn’t even make the least bit of sense.





All men have free will and the responsibility to respond and that ability is certainly supported by the scriptures.


God’s command for man to seek Him is not an empty statement. God does not lie, never did!

(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

(2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

(2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

(2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

(2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

(Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

very well articulated. kudos.

 

[Iconoclast]

QUOTE=Benjamin;1782057]1. Why am I not surprised that you would jump at the chance to proclaim the Gospel is not a genuine offer to all mankind? Because, it is your typical MO that I mentioned you do just a week ago. That’s why.

Why am I not surprised that you would try to put words in my post that i did not address...
The free ,genuine, free offer of the gospel is offered everytime gospel truth is declared to sinners. Not all sinners get to hear the gospel however. Many have lived and died and gone onto judgement for their sins. Many have been drawn effectually by God to salvation.
Your failure to recognise that both things are true at the same time leads you to sinister conclusions about those of us who love the free and sovereign grace of God.





2. That temporary literal cloud from the OT has nothing to do with the Gospel being withheld spoken of in the NT but was for the purpose of protection of God’s people. Nice try.
[/QUOTE]

I used that to illustrate that the same light given to the believers....was darkness to the unbelievers. i am well aware of the purpose of it...that is why i said;

same with Divine truth

...some welcome it ..some remain in darkness.

it is the same exact principle that a sovereign God...the potter...has all rights to the clay...making some vessels unto honour,some to dishonour;

19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Paul says this after saying he endures all things for the elect sake....

he says this in that there were some who used carnal ideas to deny God's word...which is the...MO...of ......some here:wavey:
14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
This is carnal imaginations, humanistic philosophy of those who are enemies of the cross


17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[Iconoclast]

"I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures." (Benjamin)

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

In your mind.....you try to do that...but in reality you really never address the verses offered...much less refute anything.

 

[marke]

:laugh:
Let’s get something straight here, Mr. Question Beggar, I don’t refute scripture, I refute your determinist’ interpretations of those scriptures. In this case how your determinist interpretations lead to a conclusion that the light of the Word of Christ I spoke of in the other tread is being portrayed by your doctrine as only darkness for all but the pre-selected few. So why don’t you start by explaining how your scriptures prove the Gospel message is only for those who have been pre-determined to be able to hear the truth and all others have been pre-determined to be blind to them and without hope because those Words are given in darkness. Then after my workout tonight and a few other things I got to do I’ll come back and fix you up.

I'm with you, Bro. Ben. Calvinists don't seem to understand the heart of God at all. Why did God repent that He had made man? Because His heart was grieved over their sin. Calvinism cannot explain the grief of God any more than they can explain His desire that none of the wicked would persist in their wickedness in spite of His overtures to save them.

 

[Iconoclast]

COLOR=black]Your claim that whosoever will means whosoever is determined is false, begging the question, unsupported and fallacious. Context? Those that do His commandments have the right to take of the tree of life and salvation is never of works, which leaves one thing…coming by faith (not pre-election selection; remember that). [/COLOR

Here is an example of where you deny the clear teaching of election and speak of it in the language of...an unbeliever

(Rev 22:14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

as was pointed out to you...this is another example of a verse out of context.....this is a verse speaking of the character of a believer......the way you are using this is saying that these persons are being saved by commandment keeping and inherent faith......even though you thought you qualified it by saying salvation is never of works.....you cannot have it both ways

COLOR=black]A good reason to believe in love of the truth instead of making excuses about having to be forced to believe.[/COLOR]

Again you mis-represent what the historic church has believed and cast aspersions upon our merciful God...saying the elect are "forced to believe" as if He has not worked in us effectually, enabling us to will and to do of His good pleasure. God's revelation does not "seem to please you"

I think not:
(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


The light spoken of in John1 is the Word of God which bring all men the Gospel.
The verse does not say it brings then "gospel" to all men.many live and die without the gospel. You add your own spin on this ...maybe that is where AIC..gets this from. Jesus gives all men the light of nature, and conscience...they know there is a God who they are responsible too, but willingly[self will] hold down and suppress this truth being spiritually dead.

To show how many verses you use out of context...you quoted from eph 4 not even realizing it supports the biblical view that you oppose;

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Does not look like the light has given them the gospel...looks as if Adam and the fall has left them...spiritually dead....alienanted from the life of God
1]in the vanity of their mind
2]18Having the understanding darkened
3]being alienated from the life of God
4]through the ignorance that is in them
5]the blindness of their heart:

Paul didn’t say to filter everything through Calvinist determinist glasses though, and the spirit of God is far from having to drag men to their salvation.[

he did not have too, he was busy writing to us about it,and God had them inscripturate His word to refute those who would gainsay and resist.

COLOR=black]You’ve shown nothing but delusions of victories backed by your own false conclusion.

Actually he and others have answered you scripturally....then you attempt to dismiss the answers or explain them away.You’ve shown nothing being taken out of context as you boastfully claim and my original reply stands.

You have hardly used a verse in context....:wavey:

 

[quantumfaith]

In your mind.....you try to do that...but in reality you really never address the verses offered...much less refute anything.

You KNOW where I stand.... not in agreement with YOU.