A Tough Issue With Primitive Baptist

[pinoybaptist]

Hello, Pastor Larry:

Warm Christian Greetings ! (apologies to Robert J. Hutton )
You said "I would never attend a church who did it that way ".
Well, of course, you are entitled to that principle. I only wish you had not put a note of finality to your statement.
But not wanting to do Sunday School because we PB's would like to stick as close to how the first
church did things and proving, historically and scripturally, that such practice is unscriptural is certainly not "weak argument".
I think personally that if God says the parents are responsible for something in His behalf, then the parents are responsible for something in His behalf and believers ought not to go beyond the parameters set by God because we might not see the wisdom of such parameters with our eyes but God certainly does.
Now, if I were in an area where there are Baptists, Primitive or otherwise, but who are Arminian in theology (yes, Virginia, there are Arminian PB's

)and there is a Methodist or Presbyterian church some miles away who preach the doctrines of Grace, then I would certainly go and attend worship in the Presbyterian or Methodist church, Sunday School or no, musical instruments or not, many miles away or a door down.
You see, ever since my Savior opened my eyes to the scope of His love and grace, my basis for fellowship had been, "do they preach the Doctrine of Grace?" "do they preach God sovereign in all ?"
"do they preach the Blood ?" "Do they preach all the essentials of the faith once delivered to the saints ?" Then they are my brethren in Christ, Baptist or not.
I do not speak for all the PB brethren here, but I would certainly not view Sunday School as a test of fellowship, just as many PB's do not also consider close or closed communion among PB's a test of fellowship.
But between joining to a Primitive Baptist church who does Sunday School and one who does not, I would certainly choose the latter, because joining the former would make me and them uncomfortable with each other.

Were it not for grace....
(uhmmm...I think somebody else said that here }

 

[Pastor Larry]

Thanks for your kind response and I hope you understand my approach. We disagree obviously, and I am trying to find out why.

I guess my question would still be, what is the biblical principle on which you forbid SS and small group Bible study. That the NT church didn't do it is 1) an assumption, 2) an argument from silence, and 3) assuming that NT church practices are normative. Yet I would guess that you are not eating together every night as the NT church did. I assume you are probably not preaching Christ daily from house to house as the NT church did. In other words, there are multitudes of things that the NT church did not do that we do. And I think that is where your argument falls apart if you are consistent with this application.

As for never attending, if their reasoning was your reasoning, my statement stands. I can't imagine a situation where it would be otherwise though it might arise. I too believe strongly in the doctrines of grace and would not attend a church who did not believe in them. However, I would find a Baptist church that did so rather than attending a Presbyterian or some other church. I may consider a Bible church though I would not be my first choice. OF course, I can just start a church ... that solves that problem

However, that kind of reasoning would make me suspect of their whole theology (with due respect). It seems to place a reasoning value on things that are not wholly biblical.

As for God giving responsibilities, I agree. But SS in no way undermines that. It increases it and enables it. I cannot see how SS undermines the father's role in teaching. To argue that believers should not go past it doesn't seem to fit here. How is SS going past what God ordained?? Providing scriptural teaching is no way going past anything that God has ordained. Now if SS is taking the place of spiritual teaching in the home, that is a different matter. But what about kids who come whose parents don't? We ahve a number of children like that. We wish it was different but it's not ... yet. Nor do I think it is about "wisdom in our eyes." Again, I just can't see the point. "Wisdom" says that when God says to teach his truth, we do that. Scripture does not prescribe the setting in which it is done. I have found that the most productive part of my ministry is my small group Adult Bible Fellowship class. It is the place where the most affect is evident.

Having said all that, I am seriously interested in the biblical prohibition against SS or small group Bible study. On what Scriptural basis do you guys prohibit this?

Thanks again,
Larry

 

[rlvaughn]

First - to Brother Glen - I understand your concerns, both about being misunderstood and about "airing dirty laundry." Many members here may not be aware that this is a current heated controversy among Primitive Baptists. The discussion of that controversy will certainly do well to remain contained to the Primitive Baptists; but a general discussion may be helpful to clarify what some people misunderstand about Primitive Baptist positions on the Sunday School/Bible Study subject. I think this is one area where the vast majority of the rest of Baptists might recoil in horror thinking Primitive Baptists are opposed to studying the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth! Regardless of who is right or wrong - this is an issue of methods and practices (and traditions - on both sides), not whether someone objects to studying the Bible. But you should be aware that this is how it comes across to many people, especially if they are not aware of the history of the controversy of Sunday Schools (going all the way back to early 1800).

One thing that might help the clarity in this discussion would be to ditch the terminology "Sunday School" and discuss what kind of group Bible study is allowable or if it is allowable at all. The reason I say this is because that the term probably has many different meanings for different people discussing the topic. Some Sunday Schools are full-fledged age and gender divided groupings from infant to octogenarian, with study booklets that are not even Bible based. I know what others call "Sunday School" is a simple pre-meeting before the regular worship and preaching time in which an elder or deacon teaches a predetermined portion of some book of the Bible (or chapter, verse or topic). Finally, I would also add that I can imagine no reasons that Arminians would object to anything in what commonly is called Sunday School in our day, while I would think that most Sovereign Grace believers would object to many of these things, though arriving at different degrees of objection.

General objections to numerous Sunday Schools/Bible Studies:
1. Many have an unspoken (and possibly unconscious) idea that there are three groups of people - unbelievers, believers, and the children of believers. There are only two - everyone is either a believer or an unbeliever.
2. Related to this is an Arminian idea that if we simply teach our children the Bible and its truths they will become Christians. Some mistake an intellectual acceptance of the truths of the Bible for a heart-based faith in Christ.
3. With the age-based classes for younger children, the church often unknowingly assumes that these are little Christians in training; while, if unconverted, they are in fact unbelievers. I have no objections to unbelievers attending church and learning what they can during that attendance, but, in the maze of Sunday School activity, we may lose sight of the crisp reality that the church is an assembly of baptized believers.
4. Many of the Sunday Schools/Bible Studies seem to have forgotten that spiritual truth is spiritually discerned (i.e., understood by believers who have the indwelling Spirit). I do not deny that children-unbelievers and adult-unbelievers do learn facts about the Bible. I do not think they can grasp truth spiritually while in an unconverted state.
5. The tendency toward leaving the study of the Bible in favor of the study of prepared materials (some Bible-based and some not Bible-based) is common, though not universal.
6. Not a general objection, but a specific observation: I have known of several churches that elected people to teach Sunday School in an attempt to get them to attend church more regularly.

All these things being said, I think the church (the assembly of baptized believers) has not only the right, but also the duty, to study the Bible corporately. Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." I have no doubt that this was corporate Bible study. If we import our own time-based thinking, in which everyone has access to a printed Bible, we might assume this was just individuals studying alone at home. But knowing that homes would scarcely have a copy of the scriptures, I think we rightly understand that these people came together and studied the Scriptures. If I were "organizing" the Bible study, it would be for the church (the entire gathering of the baptized believers) and taught by one of the elders or deacons in a through-the-entire-Bible format. Any unbelievers who were present would be allowed to sit in and glean whatever they may. But I also allow a little liberality for other brethren who are sincerely and lovingly studying the Bible in a somewhat different format (even though they are wrong ). But I would not be a member of a church that has a modern Sunday School format (neither would I be a member of nor regularly attend a paedobaptist church, no matter how strong on the doctrines of grace). With that statement I in no way intend to impugn the sincerity and love for the Lord any of these may have.

 

[cfolsom]

Part 1

Now that all the responses have been posted pertaining to Sunday School & Bible Study, I would like to post some final remarks pertaining to the subjects.

First, allow me to say I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but I do believe with all my being what I am about to write is scriptural. Often times we begin to have ideas about making things better, with a pure and good heart and all intentions are to help. My position is this; God does not need my help to do anything. I need HIM for everything.

Second, if anyone disagrees with me, that’s fine. However, if someone decides to throw stones at me, please through them with a scriptural sling shot. One will have more of an opportunity to sway me with scripture than without.

Now, on with it!!

I absolutely, positively disagree with Sunday school. It is a man made institution designed to save, primarily children, eternally. Which, if anyone knows anything about Primitive Baptist knows we believe salvation is of the Lord, in which we have no part. So, if one thinks about it, no one should be surprised we do not agree with Sunday schools.

A quote from the Black Rock Address:

Secondly, because such schools were never established by the apostles, nor commanded by Christ. There were children in the days of the apostles. The apostles possessed as great a desire for the salvation of souls, as much love to the cause of Christ, and knew as well what God would own for bringing persons to the knowledge of salvation, as any do at this day. We therefore must believe that if these schools were of God, we should find some account of them in the New Testament.

Black Rock Address - http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/blakrock.html#Sunday_Schools

God’s word has never advocated separating the family to be taught of God’s word. Some say children cannot understand some of the deep things of the Bible. In this I agree. For that matter there are some deep things of the Bible I do not understand myself. If anyone says they understand everything in scripture, then I would turn from them and run. The only one I know who understands it all is my Lord Christ Jesus. I don’t think I missed the “shout!”

If God had wanted us to separate the children from the adults and the young married from the old married and the men from the women, I think there would be at least one scripture to up hold that idea, or at least a concept. Brethren, there is no such scripture and there is not such concept. One may ask, “What about the women teaching the children?” Let examine scripture:

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

The primary instructing is for the older sisters are to teach the younger sisters to love their husbands and children and to teach them about the things of being a Christian lady. Lets face it, there are some things men, yes, even elders, should not be talking about to young girls. (I’ll leave it at that!)

The bible never separates its message into parts for children, women, and men. In fact scripture, by the divine inspiration of God, does just the opposite by delivering instruction so all may know. The Bible hides nothing. I personally saw this not long after I join the Old Baptist Church. My wife and I, along with our daughter were singing during song service, (we do not have child care nor a nursery during our worship service) my wife and I have our hymnals open to the selection, singing. Our daughter, about 4 at the time, was on her knees coloring in one of her books singing her little heart out. She was doing that without a hymnal. She knew the song better than I, with me holding the hymnal. I know, most would not give this example much credence, but it proves to me my daughter needs to be in the worship service with her mother and I.

Often, our daughter will make statements, with understanding, that she could have only heard from the pastor or myself, while in the stand. Children hear and understand more than we think they do. God can cause even the smallest child to understand salvation by grace because Jesus Christ gives them the gift of life to understand. Without spiritual life, even the oldest adult can’t understand.

We do not need Sunday school because some things are more difficult to understand than others. Paul writes to Ephesus and covers topics for men, women and children without separating everyone. Paul covers each of the topics so men, women and children could hear, read Ephesians 5. The same goes for qualifications for bishops and deacons. Paul writes for all to hear.
Please consider these for yourselves and your own church. They are scriptural.

Part 2 will cover Bible studies.

Changed like Saul,

Elder Chris Folsom

www.pbsermons.org

 

[Helen]

I am wondering why on earth a Scriptural reason has been asked for to have Sunday School? You need a Scriptural reason to bring some of the Bible studies down to the level of the children so they can learn more?

I learned the Bible stories in Sunday School in the fourth and fifth grade. I mean REALLY learned them. No nonsense learning time! Excellent teacher.

Through tumultuous junior high years I was reminded in Sunday School of God's love for me constantly and I really needed to hear that. In jr. hi we studied Paul's letters. That is when I was starting to learn to think on my own and being exposed so thoroughly to his logic and doctrine at that point helped me learn how to think, too.

In high school it kept me in with a safe bunch of kids. Social protection. Maybe that doesn't go over too well with the Primitive Baptists, but teens are a confused lot and need all the help they can get.

I came from a non-Christian home, by the way. So, yes, the outreach was as much for me as anyone. I went to church with a girlfriend and her family. They were faithful to pick me up every Sunday from fourth grade on.

I thought I was Christian because I agreed with everything I had been taught. I was born again, however, in my mid-twenties.

I will never cease being grateful for the men and women who taught those Sunday School lessons and the churches that sponsored them. It has been my joy and privilege to have been a Sunday School teacher myself in years past -- and I have to say that, especially when I worked with teenagers, I probably learned as much from them as they did from me.

It's one of the healthiest and most stimulating ways I know to get kids involved in Bible on a personal and thinking and praying basis.

Why do we need a specific Scripture for THAT?

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Helen:
I am wondering why on earth a Scriptural reason has been asked for to have Sunday School? You need a Scriptural reason to bring some of the Bible studies down to the level of the children so they can learn more?

Helen, I have a great deal of respect for your position on this board and especially with your work in the creation/evolution arena. So I expect you don't mean this the way it sounds to me. What I would say is, "Surely we need a scriptural reason for whatever we do." I would also say that most "Sunday Schools" are more than just bringing Bible studies down to the level of children.

Most of the rest of your post centers on experience. I think we can all have a place of thankfulness for the experiences that God has providentially brought us through. But we must also keep in mind that certain good things within the experience do not make everything about the experience scriptural. For example, if we were to insert "the Methodist Church" in place of Sunday School, how would that sound? Would that mean we should recognize the Methodist Church as scriptual and that we all ought to be in one?

I learned the Bible stories in [the Methodist Church] in the fourth and fifth grade. I mean REALLY learned them.

Through tumultuous junior high years I was reminded in [the Methodist Church] of God's love for me constantly and I really needed to hear that.

In high school [the Methodist Church] kept me in with a safe bunch of kids.

 

[cfolsom]

Part 2

My last post on this topic was of my disagreement of Sunday school. I know its not popular and most probably quit reading shortly after the first post. That’s okay. If anyone that read my post is seeking to study it out, then that’s my reasoning for the post. I pray the Lord will open eyes the way he did mine about this separating the family.

Now on to part two, Bible Study.

At the risk of upsetting the Brethren, I am compelled to state my position on bible study.

I believe bible study in-group form is a good thing to do. Not only do I consider it to be good, but also I believe, biblically we are charged to study together.

Why do I feel this way, well, as in my last post we see Paul writing to the husband, wife and child in the same writing. Paul instructs the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Where were the women and children while this was being read? Were they out preparing food for the meal, which was to follow? No, they were sitting with their families as the Ephesians letter was read. Same is the case when Paul addressed the women to submit themselves to their husbands and for the children to obey their parents. God does nothing in secret. Christ preached openly. He hid nothing. Many times we try to “add to” to help God. I would say even with good intentions, but if one cannot find scripture to back it up, stay away from it!!! Every time in the Old Testament, When Israel began adding things they got into serious trouble, God then instructed them to put away those things they had added.

I believe one can see a group bible study from Acts 17:10 with the Berean brethren. They were nobler than the brethren at Thessalonica because they studied daily to see if what Paul was saying was true. These brethren did not have bibles; the only thing they had was the Torah, basically our Old Testament. The printing press had not yet been invented and to have a personal copy of the Torah was impossible except for the very wealthy. Therefore, the only place to study was at the synagogue, together. This is an example of early New Testament Bible Study.

Another reason for Bible study is to support one another. Let me explain what I mean by this. One of the basic instructions Christ taught and the Apostles expounded upon was to help one another. To be a part of one another lives. To know what the needs of the brethren are from day to day. How else can we know the needs of one another unless we gather together often? I sincerely believe we do not spend enough time together. We should be eating more meals with one another, celebrating more birthdays together, the sisters go to the grocery stores together, quilt together, prepare for the “winter” together. In doing that our children will play together and learn how important the brethren are in our lives. The men should build things together, help each other in the yards, like years ago when they had what was called a “barn raising”. To help one another causes us to get to know one another better and what each person and family’s needs. All these things should and can start around studying the bible together.

It is so important to study God’s word together. God uses positive conversation in these studies of reveal to the student different aspects of His word. I might have a little different insight than someone else. Although my insight might be a little different than someone else that does not mean it’s wrong. An example, not to long ago, a group gathered together to study God’s word. We were studying the three Hebrew men who were thrown into the firry furnace. When the king gave them a second chance to bow down, the three simultaneously said “we are not careful to answer you in such manner…” they said it together at one time. To me that is a strong sign of the Trinity. Three, speaking as one. Speaking the same thing.

There are many more examples, but these are a few. Brethren, bible study is the only way to group study God’s word. With all due respect, we should not break up the family. Separating the family to study God’s word cannot be found in bible.

I am not writing this to cause a fight. Just, maybe to cause some to think about what the bible says about it!!

May God Bless Each of You!!!

Changed like Saul

Elder Chris Folsom

www.pbsermons.org

 

[Reena J.]

First, I don't like to write lengthy post. Don't read many either.

Second, this should lead someone to open their Bibles.

My answer about Sunday school vs Bible study:

Train up a child . . .
(It's our job)
Forsake not yourselves from assembling . . .
(We should come together)
And what about being unequally yoke . . .
(Divide them by age or maturity)

Reena