A true American

Galation, you can wave that “erroneous” document all you wish. It does not change America’s History or Reality! Adams, who signed the treaty, clearly rejects the notion we were not founded on Christian principles. History clearly shows the views of the other Founders as well. I supposed, if a treaty had been signed saying the Earth was flat, some would insist that as the authority also. It holds no water!

This is why many or most separatists/secularist do not argue with the treaty as their basis. It may settle it for you but again there is facts, history, and reality.

ETC. ETC---

They and Congress appropriated Land and Money for the construction of Churches. They assisted Christian groups in bringing the gospel to the native Indians. They purchased thousands of Bibles to be distributed etc. etc! This, the same Congress and/or Founding Fathers which you believe to think, God had no role in Government. Faith based organizations and causes to this day work hand in hand with support of the Federal Government.

I appreciate your statements. However, what they were afraid of was “established” Church/religion as found in Europe. They believed man should be able to worship God according to their own conscience free of persecution. They did not intend on our Nation, or Government, having no reverence for the Lord. Indeed, they considered secularism and atheism as dangerous to Society.

The country has only gotten further away from the Founders ideals as it has become more secular in nature, through judicial activism. Most occurring in the 1960's with an activist and liberal Court. Such as removing the Bible, Ten Commandments, and voluntary school prayer etc. These things having always played a significant role in America from its' inception.

Again read Justice Rehnquist in Wallace v. Jaffree(1985) for some insight.


Continue:

 

continued from above post.

Your statement, for the greatest part, could not be further from the truth! Today or in Historical context!


The Three branches of our Government, Judicial/Legislative/Executive, were based upon the Bible . Is. 33:22 “ For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king it is he who will save us”.

Our laws were and are a reflection of Christian principles. I have only briefly read through this site but they offer some excellent points. Otherwise you can google or look into Constitutional laws and history http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/v2n2/ant_v2n2_law.html

This is someone who’s interpretation of the First Amendment, as liberals see, would be entirely incorrect.

Another person who would never pass a confirmation hearing/litmus test, as applied today, in regards to the constitution.

Chief Justice John Marshall, May 9, 1833.

Supreme Court ruling: Davis v. Beason, Feb. 3, 1890.

Supreme Court ruling: Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. Feb. 29, 1892.

The Declaration recognizes God and the “inalienable” rights and liberties guaranteed to us by Him. The Preamble to the Constitution says “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America”.

Where did the Founders believe our Blessings and Liberties to come from? God!


Article I, Section 7 of Constitution: “If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law…”
They recognized Sunday as the Lords day.

Article VI. Oaths of office for all branches, military, and States. (excluding presidency which is under Art. II).
House of Representatives wrote swearing in language to uphold the Constitution, April 6, 1789. "I, A B a Representative of the United "States in the Congress thereof, do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) in "the presence of Almighty GOD, that I will support the Constitution of the United "States. So help me GOD." Journal of House of Representatives. http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field(DOCID+@lit(hj00130)):

They wrote the Constitution, signed, and then dated it “in the Year of our Lord”. Again only something Christian nations did typically with documents of great importance. This was no mistake and the fact is “Lord” is in our Constitution!


Congress approved the use of motto’s for currency in the mid 1830’s. In 1861 Secretary Chase instructed the director of the Philadelphia mint to prepare a motto for coinage. "

. The final motto "In God We Trust" was approved by Congress and began circulation in 1864. source:U.S Department of Treasury.


In 1956, The 84th Congress approved and declared “In God We Trust” to be the national motto.

One Nation Under God was completely appropriate. God Bless America!:thumbs:

Now it's settled!

Take care. Ralph

 

Settled? Perhaps, but not in the way theocrats want to believe.

No, the power is not vested in the Lord, but in "We the People of the United States of America." We have no king. The peoples' representatives in Congress are the lawgivers, and the courts under authority of the Constitution are the judge.

The opinions you cite are just that...opinions of some of the early government officials carrying no weight of law. No doubt there were those then, as now, who do not believe in separation of religion and government, but they lost the debate early on.

Of course, the Constitution says no such thing. As a matter of fact, Article VI states clearly

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." (emphasis mine)

​

A person may indeed request a religion-free oath. Additionally, the oath of office of the President of the United States, despite popular opinion, does not include the phrase "so help me God". The Constitution spells the oath out, and it does not have the phrase. Presidents have used it, but it is not part of the oath of office.

As I pointed out earlier, does the fact that in a dating system we reference "Thursday" (Thor's Day) mean we worship the Norse God of thunder? The "year of our Lord" is an acknowledgement of the common calendar, not establishing Christianity as our official religion.

As to the case of "Holy Trinity vs. United States", it is unfortunate that theocrats hang their hat onto what is a judge writing in dicta. This means the judge was stating a personal opinion and not writing any mandate or authority that the US is a "Christian nation. Additionally, Justice Brewer later wrote in a book he authored, that the US is Christian in the sense of predominant culture, and not in any legal way.

Outside of direct rule by God himself (as in ancient Israel), theocracy is a very bad thing. Imperfect human beings cannot agree today on what God wants. I certainly don't want them ruling over us according to their views of such.

 

It was negotiated by President Adams, and ratified by a Senate that was comprised of the men who made the American Revolution. They didn't just understand the intent of the Founders, they were the Founders. That is the definitive opinion.

[quiote] It does not change America’s History or Reality! Adams, who signed the treaty, clearly rejects the notion we were not founded on Christian principles.[/quote]

Note that Adams says that the United States is not founded on Christianity. You seem to have it backwards.

If the Founders signed a statement saying that the Earth was flat, yes, we would have to conclude that they thought so.

Reality, of course, is that the Founders stated their opinion in the treaty.

(quote showing Franklin thought religion was important)
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it…” –Constitutional Convention of 1787
But it doesn't even mention Christianity, much less say America was founded on it.

(Washington believes God was helpful in establishing the U.S.)

George Washington:
"May the same Wonder-Working Deity, who long since delivered the Hebrews from their Egyption oppressors, and planted them in the Promised Land; whose providential agency has lately been conspicuous, in establishing these United States as an independent nation, still continue to water them with the dews of heaven, and to make the inhabitants, of every denomination, participate in the temporal and spiritual blessings of that people whose God is Jehovah" "Letter to Hebrew Congregation of the City of Savannah, Ga.".
Nice, but it says God established the US, not that the US established God. Still nothing about the US being founded on Christian principles.

The prophet Ezekial pointed out that God had established Assyria for a purpose, but that does not mean that Assyria was founded on Godly principles.

What you have done is confused the obvious faith of our Founders, (deists, Christians, Jews, and others) with the idea that the nation was founded on Christianity.

The Founders were almost all religious men, but did not want a "Christian nation", having seen the evils inherent in established religion.


Original quote by Galatian: “On the other hand, most of them were devout Christians and believed Christianity was essential to a good society. But they had seen the consequences of "Christian nations" in Europe, and wanted none of it….”

Yes. As Madison said in "Against Religious Assessments", the smallest support for religion by government was evil and destructive to relgion as well as to freedom.

Actually, it became more establishment oriented over time. "In God We Trust" was no put on our money by the founders, but by politicians who came after them. "Under God" in our pledge didn't exist when I was a child. Those are modern deviations from the intent of the Founders.

All of those still exist. What the court ruled, based on the intent of the Founders, was that no government could impose any of those, or delegate that power to another. If you want to keep a copy of the Bible or the Ten Commandments with you in public school, you are free to do so. You are free to voluntarily pray, so long as you don't disrupt school, or impose on others.

My daughter used to do an "at the flagpole" prayer with her friends every morning. No one could stop them. If you feel that your religion requires forcing others participate, you aren't an American or a Christian.

 

Deist do not pray for the Lord to intervene into man's affairs, sir. As they do not beleive in a personal God whom intervenes on man's behalf. The Founding Fathers most certainly beleived in the Lord and fervently prayed for His interventions, regularly. As seen constantly throughout the Revolution, in Continental Congress, and with formation of the new Government.

Yes some are associated with it, but many considered such a great insult. In addition, those antiquated opinions have since been shown untrue in many cases. Much was due to Christians judging other Christians, as still found today.
http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Religious Affiliation:
..........................# Founding Fathers........% of Founding .......
Episcopalian/Anglican...... 88 .................... 54.7%
Presbyterian.................... 30 ................... 18.6%
Congregationalist............. 27 ................... 16.8%
Quaker............................. 7 .................. 4.3%
Dutch/German Reformed...... 6 .................. 3.7%
Lutheran............................ 5 .................. 3.1%
Catholic............................. 3 .................. 1.9%
Huguenot.......................... 3 .................. 1.9%
Unitarian........................... 3 ................... 1.9%
Methodist.......................... 2 ................... 1.2%
Calvinist............................ 1 ................... 0.6%
............................ TOTAL 204

Actually as noted, in God We Trust, was from the era of the Founders and those immediately following! During the war of 1812.

It was pinned in the The Star Spangled Banner by Francis Scott Keys. It was overwhelmingly accepted by the whole of the people and the Government. In fact, if you did not know, it became our National Anthem!

The final stanza:
"And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the Star Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Again, in 1830's they approved the use of moto's on our currency. In 1860's the motto was shortened and added to our currency and coins. "In God We Trust".

Just sounds good. But in fact such actions were most definetly against the intentions of the Founding Fathers! Here is a few tidbits for you. http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/hr4922.htm

That's great your daughter used to say a prayer at the raising of the flag. What year was that and what state? As today she would in most cases get reprimanded for such.

Please show where I have ever advocated forcing people to do anything! Or forcing my beliefs on anyone! As I have not nor would I! You have the right to worship the Lord as you choose or not at all. This is everyone's right, as especially seen by Christians. It is how the Fouding Fathers saw it.

Nobody forces you to believe or listen to a voluntary school prayer. Or to beleive in the Ten Commandments hanging on a wall. Or beleive in Christ from seeing a crucifix on the side of a road or cemetary. Nobody forces you to say "Under God" in the Pledge. Of course this is the argument of liberals and the ACLU.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know what Art. VI says. But what were the oaths as written by the First Congress and as accepted since? You missed the entire point!

You can find it in the http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?a...lit(hj00130)):

This is silly M.P. If they had written and signed the constitution in the "year of our thor" you might have a point! Something our Founders would have never done by the way, but you may find such in other countries. If you look.

Our Founding Fathers wrote and signed the constitution in the "Year of Our Lord". As is Jesus Christ our Savior!

I agree, never said otherwise, but has nothing to do with the argument.

Please show where I have ever said this to be a Theocracy or advocated such! As you know full well I have not nor would I!It is one thing to debate if this is a Christian nation. It is another, and rediculous, to say it was not even founded upon Christian principles. As what I took issue with.

Yes man writes laws for man, but the Founders understood the Lord to be the ultimate Judge and Lawgiver. Otherwise it would have been as atheism where man ultimately and singly answers only to man. A notion soundly rejected by the Founders.
You are a Christian, yes? Do you live entirely by your own rules -OR- Do you also live by and ultimately accept rules and teachings from within the Bible? As in the Ten Commandments or with Christ. Do you accept there is a greater power than yourself. As the Founding Fathers surely did. They also understood our Government would not suffice without a reverance to the Lord.

The opinions I have cited were those of the Founding Fathers! They were opinions as found by Supreme Court Justices. Whom were appointed by the Founding Fathers and confirmed by the Congress of the time.

The opinions as found with the Supreme Court in 1892, Holy Trinity v. U.S., were always the opinions of America! Try as hard as you may but something you cannot wipe away, and is THE POINT! So it is not just "some" as you imply above. Such opinions had always been the case in America.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We all have the rights we have simply because of our Christian heritage.

Y'all Take Careraying:

 

Barbarian observes:
What you have done is confused the obvious faith of our Founders, (deists, Christians, Jews, and others) with the idea that the nation was founded on Christianity.

I know some personally, who do.

Religious Affiliation:
..........................# Founding Fathers........% of Founding .......
Episcopalian/Anglican...... 88 .................... 54.7%
Presbyterian.................... 30 ................... 18.6%
Congregationalist............. 27 ................... 16.8%
Quaker............................. 7 .................. 4.3%
Dutch/German Reformed...... 6 .................. 3.7%
Lutheran............................ 5 .................. 3.1%
Catholic............................. 3 .................. 1.9%
Huguenot.......................... 3 .................. 1.9%
Unitarian........................... 3 ................... 1.9%
Methodist.......................... 2 ................... 1.2%
Calvinist............................ 1 ................... 0.6%
............................ TOTAL 204

Only 204? No Jewish founders?

How about:
Haym Salomon
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jewish/salomon.asp

Francis Salvador:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Salvador.html

While most Indians sided with the British, some tribes were allied to the Americans. They too shed blood to found this nation, and they count.

Your source is a bit myopic; hard for them to see non-Christians.


Barbarian observes:
Actually, it became more establishment oriented over time. "In God We Trust" was not put on our money by the founders, but by politicians who came after them. "Under God" in our pledge didn't exist when I was a child. Those are modern deviations from the intent of the Founders.

The phrase was not put on currency then, or adopted as a national motto. People were not ready for that, so close to the revolution. Many of the Founders were still alive and active.

By the 1830s, most of the Founders were dead, and we had drifted a bit from their vision of a free America.

Barbarian observes:
All of those still exist. What the court ruled, based on the intent of the Founders, was that no government could impose any of those, or delegate that power to another. If you want to keep a copy of the Bible or the Ten Commandments with you in public school, you are free to do so. You are free to voluntarily pray, so long as you don't disrupt school, or impose on others".

It is good. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (XIV Amendment extended freedom of religion to state governments as well) It's what the fouinders envisioned.

You've been had, my friend...

We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
James Madison - "Against Religious Assessments"

First, the ACLU has, in several important cases, intervened to force schools to allow students to pray aloud, so long as they do not interrupt educational activities. My daughter was able to pray on school grounds, because of those cases.

No law can remove the couirts from enforcing the Constitution, without a Constitutional amendment doing so. Removing the jurisdiction of the courts from religious freedom cases would essentially repeal the first amendment, and since the Constitution is the law of the land, that can happen only by amending the Constitution.

Barbarian observes:
My daughter used to do an "at the flagpole" prayer with her friends every morning. No one could stop them. If you feel that your religion requires forcing others participate, you aren't an American or a Christian.

About 1998 though 2001. Texas. But my nephew did it in Iowa. There is a court decision that set the precedent. No school in the US can stop it.

Nope. Not unless they want a lawsuit that they will certainly lose.

That decision (Doe v. Santa Fe Independent School District, 168 F.3rd 806 [5th Cir. 1999]) prohibited school-sponsored student prayer activity at sporting events. School-sponsored student prayer is prohibited by the constitution; student-sponsored student prayer is free speech protected by the constitution.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_syatp.htm

The courts have already decided that. They have also ruled that no governement entity can sponsor a prayer or delegate the power to do so to another. In short, "voluntary" means "not government sponsored." That is how it should be, as Madison pointed out.

Again, the government is prohibited from sponsoring religion, and the Ten Commandments, or Wiccan principles, or verses from the Koran are not permitted to be set up in government buildings. That is the law.

So long as the government does not build it, or sponsor it, no one has any right to complain.

It's illegal, of course, but it is what Madison referred to as a "de miniumus" violation, and the law does not deal in trifles. This is the decision of the court that allowed "In God We Trust" on currency. The court observed that the phrase had become so debased by common usage that it no longer had any meaning.

Isn't that a wonderful thing?

And yet they use calendars that proclaim "Thor's day."

As you have learned, the Founders stated that the United States is not founded on Christianity. Madison (who is considered the father of the Bill of Rights) clearly denounced establishment of any religion, even while being a devout Christian himself.

That we have sometimes fallen short of the ideals of the men who founded America, is no justification for doing further evil.

 

Sorry so slow.

Galation. Making heads or tales of your last post requires an effort. Nor am I in disagreement with numerous things you stated. Many of the things you posted were never even an issue.

reply by Galation:

From the 18th century Galation? The classical association of Deism was the belief that God did not interfere in man’s affairs. It was the clock-maker philosophy. As I understand today there are various degrees of Deism.

Either way, it is a philosophy of an impersonal God based on reason alone without revelation. There were only a few of the Founding Fathers who possibly could have ever fallen into that category.

My entire point was to take issue with your generalization of the Founders Faith. As to imply they were somewhat equally in number, quote “deists, Christians, Jews, and others”. As you said I was “confused” with their faith.

Thomas Paine wrote and published “age of reason”, which virtually every Founding Father vehemently scorned! It was an attack on Christianity, especially evangelical, and exalted deism or atheism as most saw it. He was despised and his book shamefully donned the “atheist bible”. He died an outcast.

There is no confusion with their faith. With the exception of a few, most all considered themselves Christians, as did virtually the entire nation. I appreciate the contributions made by others, as you pointed out, but such had nothing to do with the point. I chose a website which listed the greatest number of Founders and thus a greater diversity!

reply by Galation

I have been “had” by a Christian? OK.
However, your point is irrelevant. As I have stated many times their goal was to avoid an “established” Church. As the nation was overwhelmingly and virtually all Christian; the goal was to avoid favoring one Christian denomination over another Christian denomination. Their goal definitely was not to avoid support of Christianity. Or religion in general.

That’s great. However the ACLU has a pretty clear tract record against Christianity! I understand in recent years they have lost some ground due to conservative appointments etc. In addition to a public coming to realize just how radical that organization is. You can bet any Christian defense by them, will be hailed for years to come. Until they feel the need for another iconic defense.
Right now they are suing a group in Louisiana for a Katrina memorial. It is a cross with a depiction of Christ on it. It matters not to them that such is being built on private property and with private funds. Their efforts are not always to win a court battle as much as it is to use and threaten people with litigation.

What? Who ever said anything about disbanding the court system or changing the structure of the three branches?
In this regards however, I would point out the Courts can demonstrably change parts of the Constitution. With activist judges basing decisions more upon their own political views than the Constitution or Founders intent. The 9th circuit in California is a clear example of how Judges can usurp authority. The Supreme Court did such numerous times throughout the 1960’s.

Yes, we have an Amendment process by which to correct or accommodate changes. That does not give the courts the right to usurp the Legislative branch simply because of personal views.




quote by Ralph III

reply by Galation

I appreciate the post and applaud those students! However those rights are still not completely settled or beyond litigation. Student sponsored, student prayer is not always protected and still debated in numerous of those instances.




quote by Ralph III

reply by Galation

You’re off base again.
What of Arlington National Cemetery Galatian? Or the many other such National Cemeteries and Memorials. The Government builds it and yet there are Christian references and crucifixes everywhere. The Supreme Court was built by the Government and yet the corner stone is the Ten Commandments. This nation was built upon such and has always been my point! Are we to tear those down or remove such?
The difference between you and I apparently, is I will do what I can to insure those things are always there. This includes the right to put a cross on a highway and for Communities to have Christmas decorations and/or nativity scenes. All of which has been under attach by the ACLU at times and will again. All of which has always been an intricate part of American society.

Again “establishment” of Christianity or religion! What you have failed to learn is; The Government, The Supreme Courts, The Founders, and Historians all show the nation was indeed founded on Christianity. This does not mean solely or in exclusion of others, but indeed upon Christian principles. Christianity, religion in general, was meant to be a valuable aspect of Society and Government. http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html

Our Nation had always had a great reverence for the Lord. We had always been a nation of morals. Otherwise we would look more like the secular nations as found in Europe, or even worse! If you think America is evil for its heritage, or standing up for it, so be it.

But everyone, religious or not, has the rights and privileges simply because of our Christian heritage. This I will stand for.

Take care.:wavey:

end.

 

:
quote by Ralph III “Deist do not pray for the Lord to intervene into man's affairs, sir.”
Barbarian observes:
I know some personally, who do.

I try not to tell others what their religion says.

Hmmm... that one is your invention. There were in fact, Christians, deists, Jews, and others. But "somewhat equally in number" was just your imagination working overtime. I did comment that your source seems to have balked at admitting that there were Jews among the founders. Which is true.


Barbarian points out the founders opposed an officially Christian nation:
We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
James Madison - "Against Religious Assessments"

Let's try it one more time...

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?

Still don't get it?

In fact, the first Amendment specifically forbids establishment of any religion whatever.


Barbarian regarding the argument that prayer has been banned in public schools:
First, the ACLU has, in several important cases, intervened to force schools to allow students to pray aloud, so long as they do not interrupt educational activities. My daughter was able to pray on school grounds, because of those cases.

Yeah, antiChristians are always trying to get prayer in public schools, aren't they? :laugh:


Barbarian observes:
No law can remove the couirts from enforcing the Constitution, without a Constitutional amendment doing so. Removing the jurisdiction of the courts from religious freedom cases would essentially repeal the first amendment, and since the Constitution is the law of the land, that can happen only by amending the Constitution.

I was referring to attemps by some froot loops to prohibit the courts from being involved in religious freedom issues.



Barbarian on the idea that "at the flagpole" prayers can now be prevented:
Nope. Not unless they want a lawsuit that they will certainly lose.
That decision (Doe v. Santa Fe Independent School District, 168 F.3rd 806 [5th Cir. 1999]) prohibited school-sponsored student prayer activity at sporting events. School-sponsored student prayer is prohibited by the constitution; student-sponsored student prayer is free speech protected by the constitution.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_syatp.htm

As even members of Bush's own party agree, that's happening a lot more latelyi. But so far, the good guys are still winning. Kids can privately pray in public school, a federal court just told Bush he would have to obey the Constitution and get warrants for wiretaps, and so on.

Anyone who can show such a case to the ACLU, can have them intervene. The ACLU is on record as supporting private (not school-sponsored) prayer in public schools.


Barbarian observes, re a private construction of a cross:
So long as the government does not build it, or sponsor it, no one has any right to complain.

Nope. The courts have ruled that a privately-built cross, on private land is perfectly legal.

Like "In God We Trust",the courts have ruled these "de minimus" violations, and not worth prosecuting.

That we have sometimes not obeyed the law is not license to violate it at will.

Personally, I see no legal reason to oppose it, so long as any and all religions are permitted equal access.


Barbarian observes:
As you have learned, the Founders stated that the United States is not founded on Christianity. Madison (who is considered the father of the Bill of Rights) clearly denounced establishment of any religion, even while being a devout Christian himself.
That we have sometimes fallen short of the ideals of the men who founded America, is no justification for doing further evil.

I understand you want us to believe that, but we have a blunt statement from the Founders to the contrary. And they are the experts.

In fact, as Madison pointed out, the fact that American was not founded as a Christian nation, is what made it different from the mess in Europe where all the nations were "Christian nations."

You get kinda mean when you're frustrated, don't you? No matter how bad it is, you'll always make it worst by false accusations.

 

History CLEARLY shows that God was a very important part in the founding of this country. Whether one likes that fact or not, it is truly a fact. Our forefathers, not wanting a state run church, wanted people to have the freedom to worship God on their own accord. They left their accountability to God, not to the state. They were very careful, with God's guidance, to give people the freedom that God intended. Giving every man the freedom to worship God without the state telling him he couldn't.

Legal or not, the Declaration of Independance was a major step in the founding of our country.
Many of the signers of the Declaration of Independance paid a high price for their treason to England. God, and the freedom to worship God, was such an important issue that they were willing to pay that price, never backing away from their stance. (The consequence for this treason, if caught, was to be drawn and quartered.)

I heard a quote recently, can't remember the source but I will share anyway.

"Christians invented tolerance......finally within the last generation tolerance went out to the atheists, the secular humanists, and the anti-religious and the last ones in the boat decided it was too crowded and decided to push the first ones out."

 

http://www.eadshome.com/AlexanderHamilton.htm

Exerpt from Washingtons Farewell Speach

http://www.eadshome.com/farewell.htm

 

Yes, Washington wanted no government interference in religion, but he felt that religion was important. So did Madison, when he claimed God was critical to a free society, but condemned any governmental support for relgion whatever.

It may seem contradictory to some that such committed Christians, Jews, Diests, ect. would want separation of church and state. But they saw what state-supported religion was like, and wanted none of it.

And that is why the Founders declared that the United States was not founded on Christianity.

 

To have a government that excludes God is to have a government that is against God.

Mt 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 

What!!! They never declared such thing. Our country was founded on God and Christianity. However, in establishing the freedom of religion it also made it free for other faiths to have the same freedom that Christians would benefit from.

Seperation of church and state is not part of our constitution. It comes from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a baptist church, ensuring them that there was a wall of seperation between church and state, preventing the state from interfering in the church. Not the other way around. That same letter is concluded with a prayer. Side note: A prayer to the Almighty is hardly Deist behavior.

 

I smell jingoism here raising its ugly head against sane thought.

 

Yea! I know you saw it used on another thread. Never mind it was used incorrectly there but you take the same mistake here.

 

Side note: Gutting the Bible and removing the miracles therein is hardly Christian behavior. (i.e. The Jefferson Bible)

 

Barbarian observes:
And that is why the Founders declared that the United States was not founded on Christianity.

Yep, they did. Treaty with Tripoli declares that the United States is not founded on the Christian Religion. It was negotiated and written by President Adams, and ratified by the Senate, which was composed of the statemen and soldiers of the Revolution. They are the final arbiters of what they intended.

Not according to the men who founded it.

In fact, the Bill of Rights guarantees freedom from religion, as well as freedom of religion:

Freedom from:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

Freedom of:
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Sorry, the First Amendment, as you see, prohibits both.

Of course. The founders were religious men; they just wanted the government completely out of it.

I'm not a Deist, so I can't really say. All I can say is I know Deists, who do.

 

A government wihtout God is a government against God.

 

Government cheapens and debases everything it touches. This is why the founders wanted government completely out of the God business. They did, of course want Godly people in government, which is quite a different thing.

Every officially "Christian nation" has engaged in horrific perseicutions and evil.

That's how it always will be.

 

That isn't even logical. You can't have freedom FROM religion and freedom OF religion in the same society. (At least in the way you are trying to present it.) The first amendment clearly means that I have the right to believe what I choose and the government can't REQUIRE me to believe what they want me to believe.
For instance:
Displaying the 10 commandments at a court house is not the government FORCING anyone to believe or even follow the 10 commandments.
Students having a prayer meeting at a public school does not infringe upon the rights of those who don't believe in God.
Quite the contrary-In both of those examples the rights of the Christians have been violated.

Our freedom of religion has been and continues to be, little by little, taken away. Remember the "free exercise thereof" phrase?