• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

A US State can establish its own State religion

D

Dragoon68

Active Member
Magnetic Poles said:
Doesn't have to. The 14th Amendment makes the states subject to the federal constitution. They may not infringe any rights at the state level that are guaranteed at the federal level.
Click to expand...
Not that I think we should have a State church but such would not "infringe any rights" that are "guaranteed" at the federal level. That part of the Constitution was about specific prohibitions against Congress in particular - not rights. The States that had State churches at the time and for decades more made changes to their own Constitution on this subject because they wanted to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
M

Magnetic Poles

New Member
Dragoon68 said:
Not that I think we should have a State church but such would not "infringe any rights" that are "guaranteed" at the federal level. That part of the Constitution was about specific prohibitions against Congress in particular - not rights. The States that had State churches at the time and for decades more made changes to their own Constitution on this subject.
Click to expand...
Yeah....good luck with that! :laugh:

SCOTUS has upheld explicitly that the establishment clause is applicable to state governments because of the 14th. Look at Everson v. Board of Education and Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Salty

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Magnetic Poles said:
The right of free exercise, guaranteed in the First Amerndment of the US Consitution. Coercing people to support a state church infringes this right. It also violates the establishment clause. Pretty plain and simple.

If you support a state religion, whose religion would you suggest?
Click to expand...
And from post # 5 by MP "Doesn't have to. The 14th Amendment makes the states subject to the federal constitution. They may not infringe any rights at the state level that are guaranteed at the federal level. "

*************************************
Since 21 Jun 1788, all States or Commonwealths have been subject to the Federal Constitution.

Currently the Federal govt is very good at coercing people. If you are anti-war, your taxes go for war, if you are anti-abortion, you $ go abortion, if you are pro-choice, the govt requires you to wear a seat belt...

BTW, there is no such doctrine as the so-called "establishment clause" plain and simple!
What the Constitution meant was that the govt was to stay out of the affairs of the church.

Remember, part of our Baptist polity would prohibit us from wanting to establish a State or Commonwealth religion
 
B

billwald

New Member
Then the government was wrong in sending troops to Utah to prevent Utah citizens from establishing an LDS government?
 
E

EdSutton

New Member
Dragoon68 said:
Not that I think we should have a State church but such would not "infringe any rights" that are "guaranteed" at the federal level. That part of the Constitution was about specific prohibitions against Congress in particular - not rights. The States that had State churches at the time and for decades more made changes to their own Constitution on this subject because they wanted to.
Click to expand...
Exactly!

Connecticut, Georgia, New Hampshire and South Carolina all had an official state Church at the time of the adoption of the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

[Edited to add]

Also, the LDS Church was the de facto, if not de jure, state Church of Utah, when admitted to the US.

BTW, Idaho also had an official Church for 24 years, from 1957-1981. Was Presbyterian, I believe.

http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=c000388

And Nevada even had a official Bible for most of 40 years.

http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=B000436

;)

Ed
 
Last edited by a moderator:
M

Magnetic Poles

New Member
SALTCITYBAPTIST said:
BTW, there is no such doctrine as the so-called "establishment clause" plain and simple!
What the Constitution meant was that the govt was to stay out of the affairs of the church.
Click to expand...
Not according to any valid authority, such as ... oh ... say the SCOTUS. This is a talking point with no backing.

Also, there is indeed an establishment clause AND a free exercise clause. One gives us freedom from coercive religion, the other gives us freedom of choice in religion.
 
Salty

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Magnetic Poles said:
Not according to any valid authority, such as ... oh ... say the SCOTUS. This is a talking point with no backing.
Click to expand...

and at one time the SCOTUS also upheld fugitive slave laws - , they at one time upheld separte but equal...
The Court can and does (though not often) change opinion
 
B

billwald

New Member
>Also, the LDS Church was the de facto, if not de jure, state Church of Utah, when admitted to the US.

Immaterial. Some southern states have de facto Baptist governments right now. And Cal has a de facto agnostic government.
 
B

billwald

New Member
I don't care what any of you believe. Sloppy and inconsistent thinking irritates me. Now that I am old and fat and can't eat and drink what I want this is the only amusement left.
 
R

rbell

Active Member
billwald said:
I don't care what any of you believe. Sloppy and inconsistent thinking irritates me. Now that I am old and fat and can't eat and drink what I want this is the only amusement left.
Click to expand...

Allegations with no factual proof aren't sloppy and inconsistent?
 
M

matt wade

Well-Known Member
billwald said:
I don't care what any of you believe. Sloppy and inconsistent thinking irritates me. Now that I am old and fat and can't eat and drink what I want this is the only amusement left.
Click to expand...

So, what you are saying is that you constantly irritate yourself?
 
S

Surfer Joe

New Member
targus said:
What rights would be infringed upon by a state creating a state religion?
Click to expand...

It would infringe upon the rights of American citizens that live in said state.

Why would any state want to institute a state religion? The early people in this country wanted to get AWAY from state religion. And what would give Christians the right to force their beliefs on others through a state religion? Would you want another religious group to do the same to you?
 
S

Surfer Joe

New Member
SALTCITYBAPTIST said:
And from post # 5 by MP "Doesn't have to. The 14th Amendment makes the states subject to the federal constitution. They may not infringe any rights at the state level that are guaranteed at the federal level. "

*************************************
Since 21 Jun 1788, all States or Commonwealths have been subject to the Federal Constitution.

Currently the Federal govt is very good at coercing people. If you are anti-war, your taxes go for war, if you are anti-abortion, you $ go abortion, if you are pro-choice, the govt requires you to wear a seat belt...

BTW, there is no such doctrine as the so-called "establishment clause" plain and simple!
What the Constitution meant was that the govt was to stay out of the affairs of the church.

Remember, part of our Baptist polity would prohibit us from wanting to establish a State or Commonwealth religion
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to believe until persuaded otherwise, that they also wanted the church to stay out of the government. The fact that they were breaking free from a country with a state church seems to indicate this.
 
Salty

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
S

Surfer Joe

New Member
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top