How so? he had the NT God NOT same as OT One, he held to paul being ONLY Apostle, held to incomplete canon, he held to gnostic views of salvation...
I Hold to NONE of those things!
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A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles
- Thread starter evangelist-7
- Start date
How so? he had the NT God NOT same as OT One, he held to paul being ONLY Apostle, held to incomplete canon, he held to gnostic views of salvation...
I Hold to NONE of those things!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You make your whole theology soley on what you believe Paul to be saying as you said of him yourself namely that Paul was the first among the apostles.
. This being the case the other Apostles take second seat to what you believe Paul to be saying. Marcion too had that view and based his theology soley on the teachings of Paul alone. Note at the time of Marcion Canon wasn't determined. He initiated setting up a canon which is why his choice of books are called Marcions Canon. And when you take Paul out of context you come into theological issues as did Marcion who as you say was gnostic. However, look at your theology compared to gnostic theology. Gnostics believed all matter was evil created by an evil god. But everything on the intellectual or spiritual level was good. And thus you had to come to a knowledge of God to be saved. Where your theology is based on sola fidei which holds that only the intellectual assent and heart felt belief in God (a knowledge of God) is all you need for salvation and you spern all activity acted out in faith as a "works based" salvation. And all material with spiritual significance as void of anything other than an intellectual symbol to remind the mind because matter cannot touch the spiritual and vice versa. That isn't that far from the gnostic thought. All spirituality flows from the intellect of the person whom has the faith.
That paul was the greatest of the Apostles of jesus does NOT mean the rest were not also Apostles!
I look at it similiar to the Supreme Court... All Apostles would be on the Court, but paul would be the Chief justice, first among equals!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I didn't say that. Just that you made him the first among them which suggest his theology was superior to theirs as well.
Funny thats not what the bible says. Though its not suprising that you think that after all Martin Luther and Calvin were both Lawyers and approached scriptures not from their original intent but from a legal stand point.
did not the Lord jesus chose to grant paul revelations that were of the Gospel of Grace as contarsted to that of the law that were unique to him though?
That the Lord revelaed to him , that became Galatians and Romans, the fulness of the Gospel, that he put "meat" on the spiritual frame/skeleton other Apsotles had written about?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Didn't Jesus spend 3 years with the apostles rather than Paul teaching them constantly? Didn't Jesus spend d40 days with the apostles rather than Paul instructing them?
Didn't Paul have to re-work his entire theology with the help of other Christians. Didn't Paul have to reflect and study his new Christian Faith before even being used by God?
evangelist-7
New Member
Yeshua#1,
It seems this group doesn't believe in your doctrines either.
Ever try your luck with the Mormons, JWs, etc.?
.
paul had direct revelation from jesus that allowed him to be able to record and write that this is WHAT the Gospel of jesus fully entails!
he no doubt had much time to contemplate how christianity and his Jewish understandings were related together, but he had the Lord Himself reveal just HOW that all hinged and fit together!
WHICH group would you be speaking about?
Charasmatics don't accept me, as not into their cultic theologies/doctrines...
Fit in fine with baptists and those"main stream" groups like Assemblies of God though....
Paul taught that we are saved by grace alone, through the blood of Jesus Christ, and not by the blood of goats and sheep.
Then misled men came along, caught in the snare of the devil to do his work began teaching we do not even have to obey God in any way, that we only have to believe, and they teach to obey God would be a work, and thus disqualify us. It is evil nonsense, to claim obedience to God is wrong. Common sense should tell you that it is nonsense to teach obedience is wrong.
It is wrong to believe we still have to be physically circumcised; it is wrong that people believed that the Old Covenant was still in place.
Paul taught we are saved by grace alone, through the blood of Jesus Christ, and not by the blood of goats and sheep, FOR THAT AT ONE TIME WAS A REQUIREMENT JUST TO WORSHIP GOD.
We are saved by faith alone, faith in Jesus’ blood.
That does not mean Jesus has to give just anyone the Holy Spirit. Jesus makes a judgment; Jesus who knows our hearts will give the Holy Spirit to those he accepts, to those who obey.
If the true message did not come to you, or if it did and you were not yet receptive to it, but later you want to be saved, you want to be reconciled to God, then you CAN AND SHOULD search for God when you want His Truth. EVEN THE JEWS WERE TOLD TO SEEK GOD. Think about that for a while. Why do you think God told the Jews to seek Him? How do you think you are to seek God and find Him? Even if you believe you are now saved, you still should seek God. We are to search for God and Jesus tells us how. WE GET HIS TEACHINGS AND OBEY THEM. Yet reformed religions say we cannot and should not think we must do anything to be saved or to stay saved. That is incorrect teachings, for it is always right to obey God, it is right to obey God before we are saved and after we are saved, after we are saved we continue to learn what pleases him.
Jesus reveals himself to those who get his teachings and obeys them. The Father and Jesus will make their home with those who love him, and we love him by obeying. That is the Word of God.
Thinkingstuff,
I believe we must get Jesus’ teachings and obey them. From the surface, it sounds as if you believe that too, except when one looks deeper, deeper into the Catholic religion, one can see that Catholics DO NOT get God’s teachings and obey them.
If Catholics got God’s teachings and obeyed them, then they would read where Jesus says do not call anyone father, and since this is what they do, they would repent for doing so.
If Catholics got God’s teachings to obey them, they would read where God says do not idolize the works of your hands, and then Catholics would repent for doing so, and they would get rid of their statues.
If Catholics got God’s teachings and obeyed them, they would read where God says repent and be baptized. Catholics would repent for their infant baptisms and be baptized with a good conscience, as Peter tells us to.
If Catholics got God’s teachings to obey them, they would read how Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. Catholics would then repent for going through Mary.
evangelist-7
New Member
If Moriah got God’s teachings and obeyed them,
she'd be a Christian with real spiritual power ... very true also. Try it, you might like it! :godisgood:
I do have God’s teachings and obey them.
I have real Spiritual power.
Evangelist-7, Please tell us why you reject the truth about speaking in tongues and prophecy. Why do you love man’s manufactured beliefs more than God’s Truth?
Evangelist-7,
Do you know about this type of stuff going on in deceived denominations, denominations that believe in nowadays speaking in tongues?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM
Evangelist-7,
Have you watched this video? See how people fall deeper into falseness when they accept nowadays speaking in tongues.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I do believe that I believe obedience is directly related to faith. You do what you believe.
Here you are quite wrong.
Huh... funny. Do you call your father, father? If so why? Jesus said don't call anyone father. Lets take a look again at these passages
but what happened right before what is the context?
He's specifically talking about the hypocritical pharisees. Jesus also said
We can't call teachers teachers? Look at what Joseph says in Genesis
or how about Job
Is Paul violating Jesus teaching when he says in 1st Tim
Of course not. Jesus is getting across a principle using hyperbole as he does with
Jesus wanted to show with his teaching about the pharisees that the scribes and Pharisees where being sinful and proud for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Obedience is directly related to faith. I do not do merely what I believe, I do what the scriptures say, I did what the scriptures said, even when I did not understand, then God made it understandable to me.
I am not wrong, for when one looks deeper, deeper into the Catholic religion, one can see that Catholics DO NOT get God’s teachings and obey them.
Jesus does not say do not call your biological fathers ‘father,’ for biological father were called father! Jesus was speaking about Spiritual things.
Jesus is speaking about the New Testament.
Jesus is speaking in the New Testament. We are not to call other BROTHERS in Christ ‘father,’ for we are ALL BROTHERS.
You have a hard time understanding spiritual things. A person can teach someone something, but that does not make them “The Teacher.” Even the Bereans looked to God’s word to see if what the Apostles (the teachers) were saying was true! When the Jewish teacher's of the law said something, it stood as the law for people to obey, even though they nullified God's word in this way.
It is not a hyperbole it is the truth. It is the serious truth.
Therefore, what then, the Catholics thought they were better than all others were, and go against God by not doing what Jesus says not to do!
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
If you did not believe the scriptures were authoritative you wouldn't obey them now would you?
In reality what you are saying is that you do what you think scriptures are telling you not necissarily what they actually tell you.
Oh you are absolutely wrong.
So Jesus didn't mean "no man" in any context. No where does it say in that passage of the bible. "Call no man your spiritual father" If thats what he meant he should have said it. But of course he didn't.
Certainly. Paul calls himself Timothy's spiritual father. Look:
So Paul disobeyed this "spiritual teaching" as well? Or maybe you think Paul is saying his Timothy's natural father?
Not at all. I think you have a hard time with Context.
Jesus didn't say "Call no one the Teacher" He said
Which means teacher not The Teacher. The context is dealing with the pharisees and he's speaking in Hyperbolic fashion.
Hyperbole can be a truth its just a method of communication that expresses a point. Definition:
Let me ask you a question. If you do not believe Jesus speaks in hyperbole
then when did you go blind? When did you cut out your eyes the last time you lusted? Or when did you Cut off your hand when you chose to sin? How are your medical bills?
Catholics do not think we are better than anyone. However, we do act upon what Jesus taught. He said to baptize in the name of the father and the son, and the Holy Spirit. He said "this is my body" and we take him at his word.
Even a young child can read from the Bible that we are not to call anyone ‘father,’ then go to a Catholic Church and see the sin of priests calling each other ‘father,’ and parishioners calling them ‘father,’ even the blasphemous sin of calling the pope “Holy Father.”
Jesus was speaking about Spiritual things. Jesus said call no one ‘father,’ that they were brothers. Do brothers call each other ‘father’? NO! They are brothers! Brothers do not call each other father, not unless they sin against God.
Paul does not tell anyone to call him father! Paul calls himself and other Christians “Brothers and Sisters.”
Paul was a leader among the brothers, yet he was not called ‘father,’ they called Paul “brother”!
Acts 21:20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
Did Peter call Paul a pope, or a father? NO! Do the Catholic priests call themselves ‘father’? Yes. Do the Catholic priests call the other priests ‘father’? Yes. Do the Catholic parishioners call them ‘father’? Yes. Do they all call the pope “Holy Father”? Yes!
I did not want to cut out my eyes, so I stopped lusting with them!
Catholics sin against the commands of God. If you want also to talk about the Lord’s Supper, we can do that too, for the Catholics sin in their teachings about that also.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Yet every child calls his/her father father despite what is said in the passage. Are they sinning too?
You already said that. And I responded that Paul calls himself Timothy's spiritual Father.
Jesus also said to pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin. Did you pluck out your eye yet?
He calls Timothy his son which its clear he assumes the "Father role" a spiritual father role at that.
Timothy would disagree with you as far as he is conserned. And so would the Corinthians
So you disobeyed Jesus!!!!! For some reason you decided to stop lusting rather than Cut them out! Have you lusted since you became a christian? Have you wanted something that wasn't yours? How about your arm? Have you stopped sinning all together? If not why do you have arms?
How so? We uphold the law.
Us, the copts, and the orthodox are the only ones following Jesus teaching on the Lord's supper!!! How can we be sinning by following Jesus?
I have already explained that to you. Since I explained it to you, why would you speak as if I did not?
A child who calls their earthly dad ‘father’ is not sinning. Do you think the child should call their earthly dad ‘brother’? Of course not, nor should we call our brothers ‘father’! If you repent for doing things God says not to, you will be blessed.
Are you going to keep repeating yourself? Are you going to keep going on as if I did not give you an answer?
I already told you that I did not pluck out my eyes because I wanted to keep my eyes, so I stopped sinning with them.
Therefore, one can see more clearly the perversion of the Catholic Church, for Paul says we do not have many fathers through Christ, he was referring to being a first, an Apostle, yet with the Catholic Church there are MANY fathers, so many so that it would go into the thousands upon thousands since the apostasy of the Catholic Church.
Paul still is not called ‘father’ in the Bible, nor is he called ‘pope,’ and definitely not ‘Holy Father’!
The Catholics try to say Peter was the first pope. Pope means father. Jesus said not to be called ‘father’ that they were BROTHERS, and that is what Peter was called!
Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
You speak nonsense. You say I disobeyed Jesus because I did not cut out my eyes, but instead I stopped lusting with them. Jesus said IF YOUR EYES CAUSE YOU TO SIN…
Are you still lusting with your eyes Thinkingstuff? Why is that? Do you do what many Catholics do, and that is keep lusting with your eyes but feel bad about it? Feeling bad about your sin is not stopping sin.
Jesus is the bread from heaven his words are life! You believe he is actually a loaf of bread.
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