A very silly KJVO argument...

[robycop3]

A serpent is an animal that creeps, and nowadays almost-universally refers to a snake. However, in AV days, it was used for almost any noxious critter, that creeps or crawls low, & can sting or bite, such as the centipede.

"Snake" is generally used for the rods that came to life cuz of their similar shapes.

Is is not about time to sum up this discussion? I shall do so by maintaining that the KJVOs are making a desperate, silly argument by saying that Eve altered God's words, setting a pattern for man ever since. They are trying to legitimize a doctrine that has NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT, and, given the Scriptural evidence, their argument is without merit, as GOD did NOT accuse her of altering His words.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
8577. tanniyn
Nynt tanniyn tan-neen'
or tanniym (Ezek. 29:3) {tan-neem'}; intensive from the same as 8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal:--dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.

This is not a snake.

So why did they not use 'dragon' here as they did in 17 of the 23 times this word was used in the OT? The English word 'serpent' has meant limbless reptile since the 14th century. Serpent does and always has meant the same as snake in English. Click here for one source

 

[Amy.G]

Exodus 7:12 and the same word you mentioned: 8557 tanniyin

I have Strong's on Sword Searcher and a hardback copy and neither lists "venomous snake" under #8577 or #8565, so I don't know how Blue Letter Bible came up with that.

 

[Amy.G]

So why did they not use 'dragon' here as they did in 17 of the 23 times this word was used in the OT? The English word 'serpent' has meant limbless reptile since the 14th century. Serpent does and always has meant the same as snake in English. Click here for one source

I don't know. I gave you the Hebrew words that were used and the Strong's numbers. Two different Hebrew words were used in Gen 3:1 and Ex 7:12 and one means snake and one means sea monster. You tell me.

 

[Amy.G]

A serpent is an animal that creeps, and nowadays almost-universally refers to a snake. However, in AV days, it was used for almost any noxious critter, that creeps or crawls low, & can sting or bite, such as the centipede.

"Snake" is generally used for the rods that came to life cuz of their similar shapes.

I'm referring to the Hebrew words for serpent. One means snake (Gen 3:1) and the other means sea monster (Ex 7:12).


They do not both mean snake.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It is important to remember Amy that translating teams have a lot more at hand than Strong's, which is a layman's basic tool and not a serious translation device. Strong's is great, but it is not the be all and end all of defining Hebrew and Greek words.

To be consistent the translators should have used 'dragon' or 'whale' which they did every other time they encountered this particular word.

Could you give us any evidence that 'serpent' did not mean 'snake' to the KJV translating team?

 

[Amy.G]

It is important to remember Amy that translating teams have a lot more at hand than Strong's, which is a layman's basic tool and not a serious translation device. Strong's is great, but it is not the be all and end all of defining Hebrew and Greek words.

To be consistent the translators should have used 'dragon' or 'whale' which they did every other time they encountered this particular word.

Could you give us any evidence that 'serpent' did not mean 'snake' to the KJV translating team?

Can you give me any evidence that the word tanniyn means snake in Hebrew?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Exodus 7:12 and the same word you mentioned: 8557 tanniyin

Blue letter Bible only uses the Strong's number for reference. They use their own definition, which are just as reliable as Strongs.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Can you give me any evidence that the word tanniyn means snake in Hebrew?

Sure, Blue Letter Bible's definition as linked by Ann for one.

HERE is a lexicon definition

The KJV team chose 'dragon' or 'whale' most of the time. Why not here?

 

[Amy.G]

Those who believe in a younger age for the earth tend to agree that the Bible does mention dinosaurs, though it never actually uses the word “dinosaur.” Instead, it uses the Hebrew word tanniyn, which is translated a few different ways in our English Bibles. Sometimes it’s “sea monster,” and sometimes it’s “serpent.” It is most commonly translated “dragon.” The tanniyn appear to have been some sort of giant reptile. These creatures are mentioned nearly thirty times in the Old Testament and were found both on land and in the water.

http://www.gotquestions.org/dinosaurs-Bible.html


This animal in Exodus 7:12 could have been a crocodile or giant lizard, which is commonly referred to as "dragon".

Did you know that the Egyptians worshiped the "Crocodile" god?

 

[Amy.G]

Sure, Blue Letter Bible's definition as linked by Ann for one.

Then explain why in the NIV and the NLT that two completely different Hebrew words are both translated as snake? A serpent can be a snake or other reptile, but a snake is always a snake.

 

[Amy.G]

Blue letter Bible only uses the Strong's number for reference. They use their own definition, which are just as reliable as Strongs.

Really? How do you know they're just as reliable?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Really? How do you know they're just as reliable?

Because Strong's is not infallible and I have learned to trust the BLB since they came online.

Why do you only trust Strong's and nothing else?

If you will look at the notes by Keil and Deilitch, noted Hebrew scholars, on this verse in your e-sword you will note that they draw no distinction between this word and 'snake'

 

[Amy.G]

Because Strong's is not infallible and I have learned to trust the BLB since they came online.

Why do you only trust Strong's and nothing else?

Ok. Can you show me a source that says that the English word "serpent" in Gen 3:1 and Ex 7:12 are the same Hebrew word?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Ok. Can you show me a source that says that the English word "serpent" in Gen 3:1 and Ex 7:12 are the same Hebrew word?

They are different words. You will be amazed how often two or more Hebrew words are translated as the same English word in your Bible. Look up 'serpent' in your Strongs. You will find H5175, H8577, and H8314 were all translated 'serpent' by the KJV translators. The totally different Hebrew words all translated as 'serpent.'


Amy, I am not going to argue this with you. I normally find you very reasonable and respect you too much to get into a fight with you. I will back out and let you have the last word.

 

[Amy.G]

They are different words. You will be amazed how often two or more Hebrew words are translated the same way in your Bible.

Amy, I am not going to argue this with you. I normally find you very reasonable and respect you too much to get into a fight with you. I will back out and let you have the last word.

I don't mean to sound like I'm fighting with you. I'm sorry if I sound that way. I'm not KJVO either. But I do believe the manuscripts that the MV's come from are inferior. So that is where my passion comes from.

I did not mean to offend anyone. :saint:

And that's my last word! :tongue3:

 

[Dr. Bob]

I did not mean to offend anyone. :saint:

And that's my last word! :tongue3:

You CAN'T quit with saying something nice like that, Amy. You have to blast and call them "spawn of satan" or such.

Wouldn't be a versions debate without it! :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

You CAN'T quit with saying something nice like that, Amy. You have to blast and call them "spawn of satan" or such.

Wouldn't be a versions debate without it! :thumbs:

Ok. You spawn of satan!

Feel better? :laugh:.........:wavey:

 

[Trotter]

I have seen what Roger is talking about when he said that multiple words can be translated the same in English. Look at John chapter 21. Two different words are translated as "love". Sure that's Greek, but it shows the same thing.

As a writer I try not to reuse a word very much. Seeing the same word over and over is boring. Because of this I will write using the same word in multiple places and then I will go back and replace most of the instances of the word with a different word that means the same thing. For example, I might replace "red" with crimson, scarlet, or any other shade of the color... they all mean red, but it adds variety.

In situations where it wasn't an issue translators are known to do the same thing. In some cases they are not uniform in so doing and some translations have more of it than others, but they all do it. A snake is a serpent and a serpent is a snake... they are interchangeable in the English language.

I, too, respect you, Amy. You discuss but do not lower yourself to the arguing and mud-slinging of some here. That, m'lady, shows true class and is much appreciated.

 

[Amy.G]

Thank you Trotter. It wasn't always that way with me. Jesus has changed my heart. Anything good in me, came from Him.

PRAISE :jesus: