A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[npetreley]

Sorry, Np beat me to it.

Jumpikins? :laugh:

He has a hissy fit when I refer to him by his name, Jason. So I've made up other pet names, like "Jumpikins", "Jay Jonah Jump", etc. I'm thinking of using "Hocky-Mask-Guy Jump" next.

For the record, my first name is Nicholas (Nick, etc.) I don't care if people use it. I've been called a lot worse.

 

[Amy.G]

He has a hissy fit when I refer to him by his name, Jason. So I've made up other pet names, like "Jumpikins", "Jay Jonah Jump", etc. I'm thinking of using "Hocky-Mask-Guy Jump" next.

For the record, my first name is Nicholas (Nick, etc.) I don't care if people use it. I've been called a lot worse.

I guess you already know my first name. :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

I guess you already know my first name. :laugh:

You never told me. Let me guess. I'm visualizing a name... yes... it's getting clearer now... Judy? No no no... Marsha Marsha Marsha? No. Amy!! Yes, I think that's it!

I know, I'm psychic.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Early Church never teaching two or three future judgment days, they were taught there shall be a general judgment of the world at the end of the world. They believed in ONE future judgment day, not two or three different judgment days according to dispensationalism teaching.

Nowhere in the Bible saying there will be three future judgement days.

Dispensationalism is a man-made doctrine it is only 150 years old. It caused churches into divisions and split. Dispensationalism is actual make them in confusion. Also, Premillennialism was introduced to religions durng in that same period as dispensatinalism introduced. Early Church never teaching on premillennial, they believed everything all shall be end at Christ's coming, then come eternity age.

Bible teaches us that judgment seat of Christ & great white throne are synonymous meaning.

Psalms 50:3-5; Psalms 96:13; Psalms 98:9; Daniel 12:1-3 proved that, there shall be a general judgment day follow at the coming of Christ at once, not 1000 years or thee different judgment days. Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim. 4:1 are clear teaching us that, Christ shall judge the world at His coming - once, not twice or three times according dispensationalism teaching.

Millennial Exclusionism is actually heavily stick with dispensationalism. That why I reject ME and Dispensationalism, these are men-made teaching (Col. 2:8). I rather sticky with Bible what it saying than what men saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Amy.G]

You never told me. Let me guess. I'm visualizing a name... yes... it's getting clearer now... Judy? No no no... Marsha Marsha Marsha? No. Amy!! Yes, I think that's it!

I know, I'm psychic.

Wow, that was amazing! :laugh:

 

[Run2Win]

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

My friend it is late it would take me all night to resond to all of the things you have said. I'm gathering that this is a response to me and thats ok. You seem to be a God fearing individual and thats good - me too! Lets just let all that rest until it comes up on another thread. Until then, study out what you are saying b/c its a task well worth it.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Rev. 20:7 is speak of after this present gospel of the kingdom age ends as when apostasy become worsen, then Satan shall be loosed out of the midst and to deceived the world - 2 Thess. 2:3-10.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[skypair]

Brian,

Welcome to BB. :1_grouphug: This is a good topic for many here are on your side. But let me make a few counterpoints:

1) Tozer "complains" that the emphasis in Christiainity drifts from one generation to the next. I think not. I think that men emerge who emphasize certain elements of Christianity (as Tozer has done here) and they get a following for a while. Overall, I believe that the Spirit teaches the whole counsel of God to every believer but from time to time there are some who want the religion to be more legalistic (as this whole judgment issue has become via Believer's Accountability/Millennial Exclusion).

2) Tozer has an inadequate notion of when the judgment for believers' sins takes place. Spiritually, all sin was judged at the cross. Physically, which is what Tozer and BA/ME are clearly calling for, judgment for sin takes place in this life. Do you ignore that we are "chastised," even counted among "the children of disobedience" and put to death from this life for continued "sin unto death?" In this life, "your sin will surely find you out!"

When we get the the Bema/REWARDS seat, 1Cor 3:11-15, there will be a spiritual cleansing right there on the spot. Some receive reward -- others "saved so as by fire." But this is a burning away of the wisdom, thoughts and glory that are not of God. a "deprogramming" by the flames of the truth much as the old earth must be "melted with a fervent heat" to make it fit for glory of living in God's presence -- the New Earth.

But here's a for instance of "wood, hay, and stubble" that must be burned/purged -- do you like rock music? Well, it has no place in God's presence. In the reverse of what you developed in this life -- a "seared conscience" to the wrongfulness of rock music -- your spirit and soul will be purged of any remembrance or desire or enjoyment of rock music in eternity.

3) Tozer (and y'all) have absolutely no comprehension of the judgments! The church believers are "judged"/cleansed post-rapture (pretrib) in heaven at the Bema. There is NO going from heaven to "outer darkness," "weeping and gnashing," "fiery furnace," etc. Those are all allusions to the pit/sheol. (Where, indeed, do you countenance that the believers purgation takes place??)

The judgments of Mt 25:13-46 and 13:38-52 are postrib/premil on the earth, Rev 20:4. They DO involve damnation of UNBELIEVERS to the "pit" followed 1000 years later (Rev 20:11) by the GWT.

The GWT is last. It is the resurrection of ALL UNBELIEVERS of ALL time to the "GWT" and then "second death" in the "lake of fire."

The only place I can think of where BELIEVERS are excluded from the kingdom is when they are excluded from the church fellowship and turned over to Satan, 1Cor 5:5. But scripture says, in the end, "they shall be saved so as by fire," 2Cor 3:15. This "in the end" Bema "judgment" for the church is NOT purgatory or purgation of sins -- it is purgation of the mind, emotions, and will of notions that don't belong in the presence of God -- because following that judgment, we will be in the presence of God in New Jerusalem for at least 7 years!

Please tell me where in scripture you are getting your notions of post-resurrection accountability and exclusion so we can get this resolved truthfully.

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why do you assume that only good rewards are handed out at the BEMA?

Look at the pictures we are given of the BEMA. Pilate's is probably the best example. Jesus sure got a good reward there, didn't he?

 

[skypair]

Why do you assume that only good rewards are handed out at the BEMA?

Look at the pictures we are given of the BEMA.

Because I don't believe every believer's works are made up of only wood, hay and stubble. Most will have a proportion of both according to the "measure of their faith." They will thus, walk away with some reward. Look at Eph 4:13-14 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"

At the Bema, we are ALL going to come to the "measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." It says we will! And we won't be able to be "tossed to and fro by every wind of dictrine, ... wind of doctrine,... sleight of men!" Grab hold of that HoG! It's a PROMISE to believers!! But rewards will be according to how much of Christ's fulness we found in this life!

Pilate's is probably the best example. Jesus sure got a good reward there, didn't he?

I'm not following you there.

skypair

 

[Accountable]

Where does the unprofitable servant go?

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 25:30​

As to the time frame, Tozer leaves that unstated. How long do you believe the unprofitable servant will be in outer darkness?

I believe most know where I stand here. Since the Parable deals with the Kingdom, he will be there during the duration of the Kingdom, 1,000 years.

Thank you for your stand on God's Word.

 

[Accountable]

I recieved the Kingdom Alert today by Brother Faust. I am thankful for the tremendous amount of time that Bro. Faust studies to show us these truths. I encourage all here to read the artical in full then give consideration to this biblical view of the Millenial Reign of Christ. Though Tozer was but a man, he was not afraid to stand for basic biblical principals concerning the Kingdom.

 

[npetreley]

I believe most know where I stand here. Since the Parable deals with the Kingdom, he will be there during the duration of the Kingdom, 1,000 years.

Outer darkness, nothing. Are you willing to say that they're in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels? That's what Matthew 25 says. If you're going to go with the error, you might as well go whole hog.

 

[Accountable]

Notice Christ use illustrations of three servants at the judgment day. All of them are clear apply to us, aren't we the servants of God? Yes, we are God's servants, so, therefore, this passage is obivous apply to us all. Matt. 25:30 really scary me. If I hid my duty when after Christ called me to obey him, and do not use talent to serve him, then I would be cast away in the lake of fire. It is clearly speak of everlasting punishment, not temporarily or 1000 years either.

Interesting. I have never seen nor heard someone try to rapture both born from above and sinners who lost their salvation. I believe that only the born from above are caught up to the Judgement Seat of Christ. Hear we have the view of one who places eternally saved and used to be saved together at the JSOC. How did this unsaved person make it to the JSOC DeafPosttrib? Just curious. There is no scripture to back up this claim of saved and sinners at the particular Judgement. Is it not the dead IN CHRIST that rise first? Or is it the dead IN CHRIST and the dead who used to be in Christ?
I shall stick with God's Word on this one and believe that only believers will be at the JSOC and only believers will partae in rewards and outer darkness as handed down from the JSOC.

 

[Accountable]

J.J. ,

Did you see a thousand years mentioned in the context of Matthew 25:31-46? If nothing, then, you cannot add or removed word from God's Word - Rev. 22:18-19. You better be careful what you saying toward God's Word, and Christ's own saying.


QUOTE]

Interesting. You say that there is not a mention of a thousand years in this text.

I have 2 simple questions for simple answers....

vs 31... When is His Glory?
vs 34... How long is the Kingdom?

I see a thousand years written all over the context.

 

[Accountable]

Those that do not obey the gospel of God will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

.

This is a zealous statement. I pray you would reconsider the contradiction with the rest of your post. Obedience is a wor Amy. Our salvation is not in obedience but in belief. They didn't tell the Phillipian Jailor to obey but rather to believe. BUT obedience has everything to do with rewards and loss of them. Re-read I Cor. 3.

 

[Accountable]

[

I see the connection by you mixing the verses that I put in 2 different posts. I did this for a reason- b/c I have studied God's judgements and if you mix these passages together you get Matthew 25 talking about the GWT which you have already shown that you have not even looked into. Please study this out for yourself so that your comments will be relevant in this area. BTW, as a personal favor, would you please stop refering to other people in your responses to me. What he said is irrelevent to me. I've said no such thing nor am I implying this. Christians are the servants mentioned before this judging of nations begins.[/QUOTE]
Excellent approach Brother!

 

[Accountable]

Early Church never teaching two or three future judgment days, they were taught there shall be a general judgment of the world at the end of the world. They believed in ONE future judgment day, not two or three different judgment days according to dispensationalism teaching.

Nowhere in the Bible saying there will be three future judgement days.

Dispensationalism is a man-made doctrine it is only 150 years old. It caused churches into divisions and split. Dispensationalism is actual make them in confusion. Also, Premillennialism was introduced to religions durng in that same period as dispensatinalism introduced. Early Church never teaching on premillennial, they believed everything all shall be end at Christ's coming, then come eternity age.

Bible teaches us that judgment seat of Christ & great white throne are synonymous meaning.

Psalms 50:3-5; Psalms 96:13; Psalms 98:9; Daniel 12:1-3 proved that, there shall be a general judgment day follow at the coming of Christ at once, not 1000 years or thee different judgment days. Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim. 4:1 are clear teaching us that, Christ shall judge the world at His coming - once, not twice or three times according dispensationalism teaching.

Millennial Exclusionism is actually heavily stick with dispensationalism. That why I reject ME and Dispensationalism, these are men-made teaching (Col. 2:8). I rather sticky with Bible what it saying than what men saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You indeed have not done a great and thourough study upon the early church. Why you come up with the number of 150 years is beyond my comprehension seeing that there are many who taught this truth before your fantasy year.
Without involving made up statistics, let us deal with God's Word. In I Corinthians 3, we see a Judgement where all are indeed born from above. Even the unfaithful, who suffer loss, are saved so as by fire. So if there is but one Judgement after the Millenium, you have a dyer divesion in your Bible or you believe that in the end, all will be saved.

 

[Amy.G]

This is a zealous statement. I pray you would reconsider the contradiction with the rest of your post. Obedience is a wor Amy. Our salvation is not in obedience but in belief. They didn't tell the Phillipian Jailor to obey but rather to believe. BUT obedience has everything to do with rewards and loss of them. Re-read I Cor. 3.

What is the gospel of God?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I recieved the Kingdom Alert today by Brother Faust. I am thankful for the tremendous amount of time that Bro. Faust studies to show us these truths. I encourage all here to read the artical in full then give consideration to this biblical view of the Millenial Reign of Christ. Though Tozer was but a man, he was not afraid to stand for basic biblical principals concerning the Kingdom.

I need to get on his mailing list. I've received the gospel of the Kingdom mostly from simply reading Scriptures, but I would be interested in reading the studies of others as well.