A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[skypair]

I need to get on his mailing list. I've received the gospel of the Kingdom mostly from simply reading Scriptures, but I would be interested in reading the studies of others as well.

Ah! So you guys are saved by "the gospel of the kingdom." Now you're starting to make sense. You WILL either be ruling with Christ in the MK or sent to sheol, the pit at the 2nd coming --- if you make it through the tribulation.

So are you guys Jewish? Or Messianic Jews? I wish I could tell you you got the wrong gospel there but about the time you would believe me, the rapture would come and you would have been right in your old belief anyway! Fact, you might just get on God's side in the middle of the rapture and get "whacked" by AC for being a true Christian (He's not gonna "whack" the Jews for a while because it takes till the end of the trib for them to accept Christ.). :tear:

Do ya think Brian will be back or did he get disenchanted right away dealing with Christians?

skypair

 

[BrianReimer]

Do ya think Brian will be back or did he get disenchanted right away dealing with Christians?

skypair

Yes, skypair, I will respond when I have the time. Thank you, I appreciated the welcome and tone of your previous post. I joined the BB about 19 months ago and regularly read topics I'm interested in. Unfortunately, I cannot devote the time that's necessary to go back and forth in this format. Many brothers here do far better than I declaring the gospel of the coming Kingdom and still the hearts here remain hard to solid teaching. But that's ok, tilling the ground is usually hard work, the Lord will reward.

Forgive me if you think I'm ducking. I will respond one of these days.

BTW, Amy, Accountable and his beautiful family are serving the Lord as missionaries to Mexico. I can testify to you that this man knows the gospel of God. I've heard him preach! :thumbs: Being born again is NOT the entire gospel of God. It's foundational, fundamental to be sure, but it is milk.

God Bless everyone today!

 

[webdog]

Why do you assume that only good rewards are handed out at the BEMA?

Look at the pictures we are given of the BEMA. Pilate's is probably the best example. Jesus sure got a good reward there, didn't he?

You are confusing judges. There is a judge that sits over a criminal case...and there is a judge that sits over a sporting event. Paul uses this typology in his works (I've finished the race, etc.). A judge sitting over a sporting event only hands out prizes, and disqualifies contestants...he doesn't hand out death sentences. This is where you ME'ers are confusing the issue.

 

[Rufus_1611]

You are confusing judges. There is a judge that sits over a criminal case...and there is a judge that sits over a sporting event. Paul uses this typology in his works (I've finished the race, etc.). A judge sitting over a sporting event only hands out prizes, and disqualifies contestants...he doesn't hand out death sentences. This is where you ME'ers are confusing the issue.

Let's see...a judge in a baseball game is called an umpire. He calls balls & strikes. He calls safe & out.

A judge in a basketball game is a referee. He calls "fouls" that lead to negative rewards.

A referee in a football game throws flags that result in loss of yardage.

A referee in a hockey game sends people to the "sin bin" for breaking the rules.

Not receiving the double portion of the millenial reign is not a death sentence, it's the loss of a positive reward replaced with a negative reward. You might consider the unprofitable servant being cast into outer darkness a game misconduct or a double technical foul or an ejection from the game. You might even consider it a suspension. However, these individuals will still get to play again in eternity...thanks not to a prize but to a gift that includes eternal life.

 

[Accountable]

What is the gospel of God?

Which one of the gospels of God do you want to deal with?
The gospel of grace?
The gospel of the Kingdom?
Paul's gospel?
The "my" gospel?

 

[Accountable]

Ah! So you guys are saved by "the gospel of the kingdom." Now you're starting to make sense. You WILL either be ruling with Christ in the MK or sent to sheol, the pit at the 2nd coming --- if you make it through the tribulation.

So are you guys Jewish? Or Messianic Jews? I wish I could tell you you got the wrong gospel there but about the time you would believe me, the rapture would come and you would have been right in your old belief anyway! Fact, you might just get on God's side in the middle of the rapture and get "whacked" by AC for being a true Christian (He's not gonna "whack" the Jews for a while because it takes till the end of the trib for them to accept Christ.). :tear:

Do ya think Brian will be back or did he get disenchanted right away dealing with Christians?

skypair

Your rage is not needed. You can give your opinion without casting gossip.
You quoted HoG remarking about wanting more info from Brother Faust and then you go on a rampage accusing all of us of being post trib??? Either you pulled the wrong quote or you are grasping for straws. If you choose to prove us wrong, do it with scipture. Also accusing Brian of not being a Christain is beyond bitter speach.

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Please reconsider your tone with your next posting. Let's stick with fact and leave the name calling for the children.

 

[Accountable]

Let's see...a judge in a baseball game is called an umpire. He calls balls & strikes. He calls safe & out.

A judge in a basketball game is a referee. He calls "fouls" that lead to negative rewards.

A referee in a football game throws flags that result in loss of yardage.

A referee in a hockey game sends people to the "sin bin" for breaking the rules.

Not receiving the double portion of the millenial reign is not a death sentence, it's the loss of a positive reward replaced with a negative reward. You might consider the unprofitable servant being cast into outer darkness a game misconduct or a double technical foul or an ejection from the game. You might even consider it a suspension. However, these individuals will still get to play again in eternity...thanks not to a prize but to a gift that includes eternal life.

Wow! I will be watching for the reply on this one. Just when I was going to respond, I read this post. RIGHT ON TARGET!:thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

A judge sitting over a sporting event only hands out prizes, and disqualifies contestants

So can Christians be disqualified from the race? And if so what happens to those deemed disqualified?

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, skypair, I will respond when I have the time. Thank you, I appreciated the welcome and tone of your previous post. I joined the BB about 19 months ago and regularly read topics I'm interested in. Unfortunately, I cannot devote the time that's necessary to go back and forth in this format. Many brothers here do far better than I declaring the gospel of the coming Kingdom and still the hearts here remain hard to solid teaching. But that's ok, tilling the ground is usually hard work, the Lord will reward.

Forgive me if you think I'm ducking. I will respond one of these days.

BTW, Amy, Accountable and his beautiful family are serving the Lord as missionaries to Mexico. I can testify to you that this man knows the gospel of God. I've heard him preach! :thumbs: Being born again is NOT the entire gospel of God. It's foundational, fundamental to be sure, but it is milk.

God Bless everyone today!

I never implied that he didn't know the gospel of God. My point is that you ME guys are adding to it.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's the gospel. Nothing to do with works.

We are reward for our good works at the JSOC. We are not punished. If you don't run the race you will not receive a prize. An example of not running the race would be a person who accepted Christ on their deathbed. They receive eternal life, but with no rewards. They have been disqualified from the race, but not from eternal life. They are not punished for their sins because Christ has already paid the penalty. This is a serious matter to me, because I want to enjoy all that God has to offer in eternity. That means that I have to work for rewards in this life. But I do not have to work to avoid punishment.

 

[Amy.G]

To Rufus,
You cannot use modern day sporting events to prove your point about the Bema seat. It was peculiar to the day of Paul and it was where rewards were given. It had nothing to do with time outs or fouls.

 

[J. Jump]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's the gospel.

Yes this is the gospel of grace through faith apart from works. But that's not the only gospel there is in Scripture.

We are reward for our good works at the JSOC. We are not punished.

So the servent that was cast into outer darkness . . . what would you call that? How about the servants that were beaten, some with a few stripes and some with many stripes . . . what would you call that?

How about the Scripture where it says God will not be mocked you will reap what you sow. And if you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption? What would you call that?

If you don't run the race you will not receive a prize.

And that means you will be disqualified. What happens to those that are disqualified?

An example of not running the race would be a person who accepted Christ on their deathbed.

Come on Amy that's not an example of not running the race. That person never even had a chance of running the race. Not running the race has to do with those that even have a chance at running it.

They have been disqualified from the race, but not from eternal life.

How can you be disqualified from something you have never entered?

 

[Rufus_1611]

I never implied that he didn't know the gospel of God. My point is that you ME guys are adding to it.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's the gospel. Nothing to do with works.

We are reward for our good works at the JSOC. We are not punished.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." - 2 Corinthians 5:10​

If you don't run the race you will not receive a prize.

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain." - 1 Corinthians 9:24​

An example of not running the race would be a person who accepted Christ on their deathbed. They receive eternal life, but with no rewards.

Was the thief on the cross an example of a deathbed confession?

They have been disqualified from the race, but not from eternal life. They are not punished for their sins because Christ has already paid the penalty. This is a serious matter to me, because I want to enjoy all that God has to offer in eternity. That means that I have to work for rewards in this life. But I do not have to work to avoid punishment.

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." - Proverbs 13:24​

 

[James_Newman]

I never implied that he didn't know the gospel of God. My point is that you ME guys are adding to it.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's the gospel. Nothing to do with works.

We are reward for our good works at the JSOC. We are not punished. If you don't run the race you will not receive a prize. An example of not running the race would be a person who accepted Christ on their deathbed. They receive eternal life, but with no rewards. They have been disqualified from the race, but not from eternal life. They are not punished for their sins because Christ has already paid the penalty. This is a serious matter to me, because I want to enjoy all that God has to offer in eternity. That means that I have to work for rewards in this life. But I do not have to work to avoid punishment.

You can't find one other judgment seat in the bible that meets that description, so why would you think that describes Chrst's judgment seat? Instead of letting the bible tell you what a judgment seat is, you have gone to some commentary that told you it was where the kids lined up for prizes after the sack race.

 

[Rufus_1611]

To Rufus,
You cannot use modern day sporting events to prove your point about the Bema seat. It was peculiar to the day of Paul and it was where rewards were given. It had nothing to do with time outs or fouls.

I was just playing along with Webdog's analogy....it seemed to fit.

 

[npetreley]

I never implied that he didn't know the gospel of God. My point is that you ME guys are adding to it.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's the gospel. Nothing to do with works.

We are reward for our good works at the JSOC. We are not punished. If you don't run the race you will not receive a prize. An example of not running the race would be a person who accepted Christ on their deathbed. They receive eternal life, but with no rewards. They have been disqualified from the race, but not from eternal life. They are not punished for their sins because Christ has already paid the penalty. This is a serious matter to me, because I want to enjoy all that God has to offer in eternity. That means that I have to work for rewards in this life. But I do not have to work to avoid punishment.

Amen, Amy. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" We live in the Spirit because God is transforming us into the image of his Son, not because we fear condemnation for doing otherwise. We do not work, but God works in us, and He who began a good work in us will see it to completion.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's the gospel. Nothing to do with works.

Amy, I can honestly say that you have us confused with someone else. Not a single one of us on this thread has said anything different

In fact, we've done the opposite and shown the fallacy of requiring works for being saved as presented by those who hold to the Lordship Salvation doctrine.

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Plus nothing!

We are reward for our good works at the JSOC. We are not punished.

And you accuse of adding to the gospel!

If you don't run the race you will not receive a prize. An example of not running the race would be a person who accepted Christ on their deathbed.

But this person will not be punished, either. Just as the prodigal son had an inheritance simply by being in the family, and for no other reason, but he squandered it.

The person who receives Jesus on his deathbed will not have time to receive a prize, but neither will he have time to squander his inheritance. He won't have the inheritance of the firstborn, but he's in the family.

I used to race professionally, and it's a perfect antitype to the picture we are given of running the race.

Anyone could get into the race by simply going up to the ticket window and asking for a ticket.

But, if you want to enter the race, you have to qualify. You have to take written tests, driving tests, etc. Then, you are permitted to enter provisionally in which you have to start at the back of the starting grid and show that you're serious about racing. Then, after you show that you are for real, you're permitted to run with the big boys.

Now, even after you're taken off provisional status, you can still become disqualified for doing something illegal, dangerous, or cheating. These people are punished by fines, suspensions, or even permanent loss of their racing license.

However, everyone who runs the race, even if they crash out, has at least a little honor because if you even show up on the starting grid, you have a place, unless you're disqualified. (You're honored by the fans who watch, and the officials.)

But, not everyone who finishes the race gets first place. That's a special honor given only to one person. Top 3 get to stand on the podium and have their pictures taken, etc. (in some races, top 5). Top 10 get trophys or plaques. Top 20 get points.

But, the big picture in the race is not only the honor in that one event, but the overall race in which your accumulated points determine whether you are invited to the finals (top 10 from each region). Only those who have performed consistently can do this. I was invited to the finals because, although my best finish was a 5th place, I performed consistently. The guy who would win one race would go so hard he would crash out of the next one. So, many of the people who outperformed me in individual events would have honor at those events, but did not receive a prize in the big one.

But, the judges would make the rulings: Some received honor and praise, most simply ran the race, some were disqualified. But, there were many times more people there who didn't run the race. No honor, no glory, no anything, but they were there.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes this is the gospel of grace through faith apart from works. But that's not the only gospel there is in Scripture.

What is the other gospel? Paul said that if ANY other gospel were preached other than the one he preached, let them be accursed. Paul preached faith in the Lord Christ APART from works.

How about the Scripture where it says God will not be mocked you will reap what you sow. And if you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption? What would you call that?

Those that sow to the Spirit receive eternal life. It's a clear comparison between the saved and the unsaved.

And that means you will be disqualified. What happens to those that are disqualified?

The don't receive any rewards.

How can you be disqualified from something you have never entered?

You enter the race at the moment of salvation. The ones who don't enter the race are the unsaved. They will go to the GWT judgement, not the JSOC.



Gotta mow the yard.:wavey:

 

[Accountable]

We are reward for our good works at the JSOC. We are not punished. QUOTE]
Amy, Thank you for your post. Question, What does it mean in 1 Corinthians 3:15 when he says that if your works are burned, you shall suffer loss?

Also, what is the terror of the Lord as refered to in Hebrews? Was he not dealing with Christians there?

 

[Hope of Glory]

To Rufus,
You cannot use modern day sporting events to prove your point about the Bema seat. It was peculiar to the day of Paul and it was where rewards were given. It had nothing to do with time outs or fouls.

Then, how about the ancient Olympics in which competitors were fined for cheating, or for even not training? Married women who attended were put to death, but maidens were permitted to watch. (Although girls did have their own events.)

Those who cheated were fined, and the money was used to set up statues (glorify) Zeus.

There were dire consequences for cheating, bribing, not training, breaking the rules, etc.

There was great honor for winning.

But, all who entered and ran successfully were honored.

Interestingly, the judges used mercy as well. If an athlete were not able to follow the rules, such as arriving on time, and he could present a good reason that was beyond his control (a storm blew up and his ship landed 100 miles away with witnesses), he was excused for his behavior and not disqualified.

 

[npetreley]

What does it mean in 1 Corinthians 3:15 when he says that if your works are burned, you shall suffer loss?

Given the context, it means he shall not get any rewards because none of his works will survive the fire (loss), but he will only be saved. Note carefully the way this passage starts. There is no other foundation than Jesus Christ. God reveals our works through fire, which burns whatever we build on that foundation. The foundation still stands, however, even if all of what we built upon it is destroyed. In other words, there's no room for sending the person to the lake of fire for 1,000 years, because our foundation still stands.

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.