A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[skypair]

Yes this is the gospel of grace through faith apart from works. But that's not the only gospel there is in Scripture.

First off, what you add to it by saying "that is not the only gospel" is BAD news, not good news. So it does NOT belong to the gospel/good news at all!

So the servent that was cast into outer darkness . . . what would you call that?

Mt 25:30 -- This is the judgment of trib JEWS. God always calls them "servants" in the parables. This judgment is postrib for the survivors, not pretrib and the Bema in heaven which is for the church. These go into outer darkness... weeping and gnashing of teeth" which is JEWISH hell everytime it is mentioned in scripture! You have the WRONG judgment if you are trying to teach about the church!

How about the servants that were beaten, some with a few stripes and some with many stripes . . . what would you call that?

Again, postrib Jews. His "lord" is coming back (to earth) unexpectedly and that wicked "servant" will be punished.

If you want to see the church comparison, look right above this parable -- the "householder" is the churchgoer who has his house broken (some family taken in the night) because he did not know when the "thief"/Christ should come in the rapture!

How about the Scripture where it says God will not be mocked you will reap what you sow. And if you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption? What would you call that?

That is SO true in my life. Isn't it in yours?? We're certainly not going to have "corruptible flesh" in heaven. We're certainly, from there, not going to lose our "incorruptible bodies," 2Cor 5:1-5, else it wouldn't be "incorruptible" now would it??

And that means you will be disqualified. What happens to those that are disqualified?

Disqualified is unsaved. Coming in last but saved is what Webdog was talking about. But even in a marathon, those that finish get a T-shirt, right? :laugh:

How can you be disqualified from something you have never entered?

We ALL enter the race, friend. It's called "LIFE." Ex: You're disqualified if you are a spectator and decide to run out onto the track as if you were in the race but hadn't registered, right?

skypair

 

[skypair]

You can't find one other judgment seat in the bible that meets that description, so why would you think that describes Christ's judgment seat?

BOGUS REPLY!! At the Bema, there is one Judge -- "the judgment seat of Christ," 2Cor 5:10.

But look in Rev 20:4 (= Mt 19:28) -- "I saw [12] thrones, and them that sat on them..."

skypair

 

[skypair]

Question, What does it mean in 1 Corinthians 3:15 when he says that if your works are burned, you shall suffer loss?

To me, it appears that one can lose one's crown. Rev 3:11 says "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

It appears that Christ is saying to Philly (to me) to be ready for the rapture -- be looking for it -- because because there is a crown given to... Well, Ill let Paul tell you, 2Tim 4:8, "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

But suppose such an one got convinced that the rapture was postrib and thought "My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;..." Forget the crown. Someone conned you out of it, friend!

Also, what is the terror of the Lord as refered to in Hebrews? Was he not dealing with Christians there?

"Terror of the Lord" is in 1Cor 5:11 -- it is His judgment there upon those who are not reconciled to Him.

What I think you refer to is this -- ""fearful looking forward to of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary." This speaks about THIS LIFE. I tell you that if you have willful sin in your life, you are every day fearful of God's judgment on you as on a child of discobedience! And even of fiery indignation, as those who believe in the postrib rapture! It is a huge error to sin against God's word but people do it in act as well as in belief. And you know what that "postrib rapture" theory is? WOOD, HAY, AND STUBBLE! It's mens wisdom, thoughts and glory, and not God's! The postrib believer allowed someone else to build "wood, hay, and stubble" on his foundation!!

How's that for wrapping up the burning stubble and the losing rewards in one fell swoop?!

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Well, I have to give credit to the ME folks for one thing. They've unified the Calvinists and free-willers against them.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Well, I have to give credit to the ME folks for one thing. They've unified the Calvinists and free-willers against them.

That should come as no surprise. This is why Calvinists and Arminianists (I have been both in my walk) argue all the time, they're both right about their pet doctrines and scripture but both are wrong in light of the whole counsel of God.

I like how Tozer put it...

It is well for us to consider here that church history shows plainly that religious people are prone to select a favorite Bible doctrine or truth and to hold to that one truth at the expense of other basic tenets. We may overemphasize that one truth so as to obscure other important truths which may actually disappear as a result. This is what I mean by a truth disappearing - it falls into disuse and therefore is easily forgotten...

 

[npetreley]

That should come as no surprise. This is why Calvinists and Arminianists (I have been both in my walk) argue all the time, they're both right about their pet doctrines and scripture but both are wrong in light of the whole counsel of God.

I like how Tozer put it...

I don't believe we are both right about our doctrines, although I do believe there is truth in some parts of free-willism. Regardless, even assuming you're right, it is better to have half a truth than the whole lie that is ME, and be accursed for preaching another gospel.

 

[J. Jump]

Disqualified is unsaved.

So you think Paul was worried about being saved and then becoming unsaved when he said it was possible for him to be disqualified? Do you not believe in unconditional security of everlasting life?

Coming in last but saved is what Webdog was talking about.

Yes there will be those that finish the race, but don't finish as high as others. Some will produce much fruit, some will produce an average amount of fruit, and yet others will produce a little fruit.

But their are three "other" kinds of folks that don't produce ANY fruit. They are the disqualified. Disqualified doesn't mean unsaved in reference to everlasting life.

There will be finishers and there will be the disqualified all standing at the JSOC.

But even in a marathon, those that finish get a T-shirt, right?

Absolutely! If you run the race in the correct manner and finish you will get the prize. However if you don't run the race or run outside of the rules you will be disqualified.

We ALL enter the race, friend.

I would hardly call a death-bed confession entering the race. That's what we have been talking about.

It's called "LIFE

For those that still have a life to live I would agree!

You're disqualified if you are a spectator and decide to run out onto the track as if you were in the race but hadn't registered, right?

That is certainly true of some people today, but in Scripture the running of the race is ONLY in reference to those that are capable of running the race. And these folks can either run or not run. God puts you on the starting blocks, but what you do after that is up to you. Run to win or be disqualified. It's our choice. And there are consequences for both choices.

 

[Rufus_1611]

I don't believe we are both right about our doctrines, although I do believe there is truth in some parts of free-willism. Regardless, even assuming you're right, it is better to have half a truth than the whole lie that is ME, and be accursed for preaching another gospel.

Do you thus believe that AW Tozer was preaching a lie, that he was preaching another gospel and was accursed?

 

[J. Jump]

Well, I have to give credit to the ME folks for one thing. They've unified the Calvinists and free-willers against them.

Same thing happened roughly 2000 years ago as well. Nothing brought the Pharisees and the Saducees together more than trying to rid the world of the gospel of the kingdom and the King that came preaching it!

 

[npetreley]

Do you thus believe that AW Tozer was preaching a lie, that he was preaching another gospel and was accursed?

I believe Tozer was teaching error. However (at least based on the quoted text in the OP), he did not pose it as another gospel, as many of the ME folks do.

 

[npetreley]

Same thing happened roughly 2000 years ago as well. Nothing brought the Pharisees and the Saducees together more than trying to rid the world of the gospel of the kingdom and the King that came preaching it!

Actually, Hockey Mask Guy Jump, the motivation of the Pharisees is not unlike the motivation of the ME folks. Both of you seem to be offended by the cross and grace, and feel you have to add works to the gospel in order for it to be meaningful. So if anyone fits the shoe of the Pharisees, it's you MEers.

 

[J. Jump]

However (at least based on the quoted text in the OP), he did not pose it as another gospel, as many of the ME folks do.

That's funny. You can preach the same Truth, but as long as you don't call it "gospel" then you are okay :laugh:. I like it.

 

[J. Jump]

Both of you seem to be offended by the cross and grace

You couldn't be further from the Truth!

 

[Rufus_1611]

Actually, Hockey Mask Guy Jump, the motivation of the Pharisees is not unlike the motivation of the ME folks. Both of you seem to be offended by the cross and grace, and feel you have to add works to the gospel in order for it to be meaningful. So if anyone fits the shoe of the Pharisees, it's you MEers.

I see you get your debating skills from Timmy, Timmy. I believe the gentleman's name is "J. Jump".

As to being offended by the cross and grace, this is quite far from the truth. By grace we are saved through faith. Eternal salvation is a gift of God and all that is required is belief and this was accomplished by the work of the Lamb on the cross. There are no works to be added for eternal salvation and you are in error to suggest that ME'rs believe what you are suggesting.

 

[npetreley]

I see you get your debating skills from Timmy, Timmy. I believe the gentleman's name is "J. Jump".

As to being offended by the cross and grace, this is quite far from the truth. By grace we are saved through faith. Eternal salvation is a gift of God and all that is required is belief and this was accomplished by the work of the Lamb on the cross. There are no works to be added for eternal salvation and you are in error to suggest that ME'rs believe what you are suggesting.

If I refer to him as Jennifer J. Jump Leigh, what's that to you?

Anyway, you're careful to be specific about the gospel of "eternal salvation" because MEers have other gospels for other types of salvation (kingdom salvation, for example). But if anyone preach any other gospel than THE gospel, let them be accursed. And don't tell me that it's not true, even if you personally don't say there are other gospels -- just read the other threads where MEers claim there are multiple gospels. You can find names other than "gospel" for your other gospels, but it's all the same thing.

 

[James_Newman]

Actually, Hockey Mask Guy Jump, the motivation of the Pharisees is not unlike the motivation of the ME folks. Both of you seem to be offended by the cross and grace, and feel you have to add works to the gospel in order for it to be meaningful. So if anyone fits the shoe of the Pharisees, it's you MEers.

Offended by grace? Brother, I affirm grace in the highest degree. Christ died to save sinners like me. If a man believes on Christ, though he be a fornicator, an adulterer, a murderer, a thief, he will be raised up on the last day. Thats a promise from God. But God also promised that fornicators, adulterers, murderers and thieves would not inherit the kingdom of God.

The gospel of the kingdom is simple.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[Hope of Glory]

There are no works to be added for eternal salvation and you are in error to suggest that ME'rs believe what you are suggesting.

It's actually more than "error"; it is quite intentional, sinced this has been pointed out to him over and over and over.

 

[Rufus_1611]

If I refer to him as Jennifer J. Jump Leigh, what's that to you?

It's something to me as I consider Jump to be a brother in Christ and I find it difficult to understand why a fellow brother has taken to calling Jump names that are not his. Can we not disagree and still respect one another?

 

[James_Newman]

It's actually more than "error"; it is quite intentional, sinced this has been pointed out to him over and over and over.

The error is to believe that since God doesn't require works for salvation, then He doesn't require works for anything (although there are certain works that somehow prove you aren't really saved to begin with.)

 

[James_Newman]

First off, what you add to it by saying "that is not the only gospel" is BAD news, not good news. So it does NOT belong to the gospel/good news at all!

Mt 25:30 -- This is the judgment of trib JEWS. God always calls them "servants" in the parables. This judgment is postrib for the survivors, not pretrib and the Bema in heaven which is for the church. These go into outer darkness... weeping and gnashing of teeth" which is JEWISH hell everytime it is mentioned in scripture! You have the WRONG judgment if you are trying to teach about the church!

Again, postrib Jews. His "lord" is coming back (to earth) unexpectedly and that wicked "servant" will be punished.

I'll just quote Tozer:

What are you going to do with that passage? I know the ultra-dispensationalist just gets rid of it by saying, 'Matthew does not belong to us in the church.' Well, I would just as soon believe the modernist when he says Isaiah does not belong to us as to believe the dispensationalist who tells us that Matthew does not belong to us.