A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[Hope of Glory]

What a conundrum! Jesus doesn't know someone, yet he knows all.

 

[James_Newman]

Well, we're not going to get anywhere. After all, I'm arguing with a guy who thinks the definition of "eternity" means John 3:16 amounts to, "shall not perish, but have 1,000 years of life that is so boring it will seem like an eternity". (That is, after all, one of the ways you "prove" that "eternity" can mean a fixed amount of time.)

Personally I think John 3:16 is refering to eternal salvation, not the kingdom. Others may think different. I don't see any works in John 3:16. But you must, because you seem to think John 3:16 can't apply to folks who are living in sin. Matthew 7 is not dealing with eternal salvation through faith, it is dealing with works.

 

[TCGreek]

I think they must be saved because they believe on the Lord, which is the same reason I think I must be saved and you as well. If they forgot part of the secret formula for salvation, I hope you or I didn't forget it as well. I never knew you is refering to the intimate knowledge that comes from walking in fellowship with Christ, not being saved.

1. Simply because someone says I believe in Jesus means that that person is saved. I wish not to be so naive.

2. Jesus didn't believe it either. Why did he say, "I never knew you."

3. For instance, even people pretended to be righteous (Lk 20:20).

 

[npetreley]

What a conundrum! Jesus doesn't know someone, yet he knows all.

Take that up with Jesus. He is the One who says He will respond with "I never knew you." It also helps to understand the Greek word for "know". Hint: It is the same word used in "Those He foreknew, He predestined..."

 

[TCGreek]

Personally I think John 3:16 is refering to eternal salvation, not the kingdom. Others may think different. I don't see any works in John 3:16. But you must, because you seem to think John 3:16 can't apply to folks who are living in sin. Matthew 7 is not dealing with eternal salvation through faith, it is dealing with works.

1. At one level Matt. 7 is addressing what is the content of one's profession of faith, "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord."

2. According to the Reformers, we are justified by faith alone, but this faith is never alone (Isn't that at the heart of James, which is then treated in James 2?)

 

[James_Newman]

1. Simple because someone says I believe in Jesus means that that person is saved. I wish not too so naive.

How much works should they add to faith in order to be saved?

2. Jesus didn't believe it either. What did he say, "I never knew you."

Why did Jesus say 'I never knew you?' Can you show me faith or belief anywhere in that context? The whole context is dealing with works.

3. For instance, even people pretended to be righteous (Lk 20:20).

Apples and oranges. These folks are not trying to trick Christ, they are being rejected at the judgment seat of Christ because of their works.

 

[James_Newman]

1. At one level Matt. 7 is addressing what is the content of one's profession of faith, "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord."

2. According to the Reformers, we are justified by faith alone, but this faith is never alone (Isn't that at the heart of James, which is then treated in James 2?)

No, James only says that faith without works is dead. If faith can't be without works, how could it be dead? James is also written to believers and is dealing with works that a Christian ought to have, and that Christians will be judged for.

 

[TCGreek]

How much works should they add to faith in order to be saved?

1. NONE.

Why did Jesus say 'I never knew you?' Can you show me faith or belief anywhere in that context? The whole context is dealing with works.

2. I never say that it is primarily about faith, that is why I prefaced my statement with, "At one level..."

3. How can we successfully omit faith in the expression, "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord" I will never know.

Apples and oranges. These folks are not trying to trick Christ, they are being rejected at the judgment seat of Christ because of their works.

4. I began with "For instance..." Whatever that means!

 

[npetreley]

No, James only says that faith without works is dead. If faith can't be without works, how could it be dead? James is also written to believers and is dealing with works that a Christian ought to have, and that Christians will be judged for.

I'm not a fan of the book of James. I don't believe, like Martin Luther did when he was younger, that James shouldn't be part of the Bible. But it seems like a conglomeration of sayings badly compiled. Maybe, like Luther, I'll appreciate it more with age and wisdom.

However, I believe the key to understanding James is: "Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

In other words, it isn't about faith plus works. It's about the fact that real faith is made evident by the fact that works follow.

 

[TCGreek]

No, James only says that faith without works is dead. If faith can't be without works, how could it be dead? James is also written to believers and is dealing with works that a Christian ought to have, and that Christians will be judged for.

1. James begins his discussion at v.14 and it speaks about a saving faith.

2. Apart from the Gospel narratives, Let me know which other NT books were not written to believers.

3. Sometimes I wonder, What do we mean that a book was written to believers?

 

[James_Newman]

1. James begins his discussion at v.14 and it speaks about a saving faith.

2. Apart from the Gospel narratives, Let me know which other NT books were not written to believers.

3. Sometimes I wonder, What do you mean that a book was written to believers?

I mean that the assumed audience is someone who is already saved by faith in Christ. James is building upon the foundation, just like Paul. When James says
James 2:15-16
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

he is saying it to people who are already saved by faith. If James contends that faith alone cannot save, it is not in the same sense that we are already saved by faith alone (Romans 3:28, Gal 2:16), it is a different type of saving that requires putting actions to our faith.

 

[TCGreek]

I mean that the assumed audience is someone who is already saved by faith in Christ. James is building upon the foundation, just like Paul. When James says
James 2:15-16
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

he is saying it to people who are already saved by faith. If James contends that faith alone cannot save, it is not in the same sense that we are already saved by faith alone (Romans 3:28, Gal 2:16), it is a different type of saving that requires putting actions to our faith.

And what might that "different type of saving" be?

 

[Hope of Glory]

It also helps to understand the Greek word for "know". Hint: It is the same word used in "Those He foreknew, He predestined..."

Which is exactly what I said a while back, to which some responded, "Does not!" (BTW, the context also says the same thing.)

 

[npetreley]

And what might that "different type of saving" be?

:laugh::laugh:

................

 

[James_Newman]

And what might that "different type of saving" be?

Being approved at the judgment seat of Christ, and saved from outer darkness.

 

[Amy.G]

Being approved at the judgment seat of Christ, and saved from outer darkness.

Approved based on what?

 

[npetreley]

Approved based on what?

Let's see. You had a sinful thought just before you died. 1,000 years in hell. (Gavel bangs) Next!

Hmm.... says here you have 2 more unconfessed sins than confessed sins. 1,000 years in hell. (Thwack) Next.

Oh, I recognize you. You're the thief on the cross! How have you been? 1,000 years in Hawaii! Just kidding! You had a lustful thought 3 seconds before you died and didn't confess it, so no more paradise for you. 3 seconds of unconfessed sin = 1,000 years in hell. (Thwack) Next.

 

[J. Jump]

Approved based on what?

Whether or not you ran the race. Whether or not you finished the race. And whether or not you ran in a proper fashion.

If you didn't do any of those things you are going to be disqualified from the prize.

 

[Amy.G]

What you ME guys are missing is this, the believer has already been to court. The judging, sentencing and execution have already taken place, by our substitute, Jesus Christ.

By faith in Him, we are declared righteous. When we stand before Christ we do not lose our righteousness. We are not judged on our sin. See above paragraph.

 

[TCGreek]

What you ME guys are missing is this, the believer has already been to court. The judging, sentencing and execution have already taken place, by our substitute, Jesus Christ.

By faith in Him, we are declared righteous. When we stand before Christ we do not lose our righteousness. We are not judged on our sin. See above paragraph.

You have spoken for me too. :thumbs: