A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[Rufus_1611]

What you ME guys are missing is this, the believer has already been to court. The judging, sentencing and execution have already taken place, by our substitute, Jesus Christ.

The believer has not been to court. We all must appear in court and a judge will rule over the things done in our bodies, whether they be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5 is to Christians right? You're part of "all" right?

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." - 2 Corinthians 5:10​

What is the verse that you would cite which would demonstrate that you've already appeared before the judge?

By faith in Him, we are declared righteous. When we stand before Christ we do not lose our righteousness. We are not judged on our sin. See above paragraph.

 

[James_Newman]

Let's see. You had a sinful thought just before you died. 1,000 years in hell. (Gavel bangs) Next!

Hmm.... says here you have 2 more unconfessed sins than confessed sins. 1,000 years in hell. (Thwack) Next.

Oh, I recognize you. You're the thief on the cross! How have you been? 1,000 years in Hawaii! Just kidding! You had a lustful thought 3 seconds before you died and didn't confess it, so no more paradise for you. 3 seconds of unconfessed sin = 1,000 years in hell. (Thwack) Next.

I'm sure we all have sins that we forget or that we are unaware of. How does one deal with this problem? One way is to have mercy towards others.

Matthew 5:7
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Luke 10:36-37
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

This just ties in with James

James 2:12-13
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

It would be foolish to believe that you could withhold mercy from others and then expect the Lord to extend it to you at the judgment seat. But the Lord is merciful to them that show mercy.

 

[James_Newman]

What you ME guys are missing is this, the believer has already been to court. The judging, sentencing and execution have already taken place, by our substitute, Jesus Christ.

By faith in Him, we are declared righteous. When we stand before Christ we do not lose our righteousness. We are not judged on our sin. See above paragraph.

This is absolutely correct in regard to the great white throne. You can go get drunk tonight and step out on your husband and get killed in a fiery street racing accident killing a family of 12 in the other vehicle, and you will not bear the eternal penalty of that sin because of what Christ did for you. But there are temporal consequences for sin in the life of a believer and foremost of those is missing the inheritance of the kingdom.

 

[npetreley]

You can go get drunk tonight and step out on your husband and get killed in a fiery street racing accident killing a family of 12 in the other vehicle

You guys crack me up. You'd have no message at all if you didn't have these ridiculous hypotheticals to wave around.

 

[James_Newman]

You guys crack me up. You'd have no message at all if you didn't have these ridiculous hypotheticals to wave around.

What hypothetical sin do you suppose could cost you your eternal salvation? Perhaps build a giant space station and then cruise the galaxy destroying planets? If you believe in Christ, that sin would also be paid for. I'm only expressing that we do understand grace, probably more than most. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners, should it be shocking to find that many of us still are? But denying that Christ also gives us the power to overcome sin, and the motivation... that is shameful.

 

[J. Jump]

What you ME guys are missing is this, the believer has already been to court. The judging, sentencing and execution have already taken place, by our substitute, Jesus Christ.

If we have already stood before the judge then who is going to give us a crown or declare us disqualified after the race is over? Only a judge can do that.

 

[npetreley]

But denying that Christ also gives us the power to overcome sin, and the motivation... that is shameful.

That would be shameful if anyone was suggesting anything like that.

You have unwittingly revealed a self-contradiction in ME, by the way. But...

1. You've worn me out too much to pursue the matter further, and:

2. It wouldn't change your man-centered thinking, anyway.

 

[npetreley]

If we have already stood before the judge then who is going to give us a crown or declare us disqualified after the race is over? Only a judge can do that.

This is yet another thing I love about ME. It's like cabbage patch dolls. No two MEs are alike. You and Rufus disagree with Amy on this point. James agrees. So it's a heresy that's hard to disarm because you can disprove it for one ME believer but two more ME believers will pop up and contradict the first ME believer.

 

[James_Newman]

That would be shameful if anyone was suggesting anything like that.

You have unwittingly revealed a self-contradiction in ME, by the way. But...

1. You've worn me out too much to pursue the matter further, and:

2. It wouldn't change your man-centered thinking, anyway.

Ah, so you have the key to release me from my bondage to works, but you're to tired to give it to me and you don't think I'd use it anyway. Brother, you haven't raised any objections that I haven't heard before and if you had a new one I'd love to hear it. Calling my thinking man-centered is not saying anything. My thinking is not man centered it is God centered. It is centered on the fact that I am going to stand before God and give account for my deeds and I will recieve for the things done in the flesh whether they be good or bad. My flesh would love to convince me that this were not so, and I understand why you don't like the teaching because it really brings the warnings in the bible home. But once you get past the initial shock (and its only shocking because nobody teaches it any more) you'll find that it is a teaching that brings forth fruit in the lives of folks who previously just couldn't get a handle on living the Christian life.

 

[James_Newman]

This is yet another thing I love about ME. It's like cabbage patch dolls. No two MEs are alike. You and Rufus disagree with Amy on this point. James agrees. So it's a heresy that's hard to disarm because you can disprove it for one ME believer but two more ME believers will pop up and contradict the first ME believer.

I only agreed that our sins were taken care of at the cross in regard to eternal salvation. I agree with Rufus and J that we have yet to stand before the judge. And if you look on our backsides we all have the same name tatooed there.

 

[skypair]

There will be finishers and there will be the disqualified all standing at the JSOC.

Let's talk specifics -- not allegories. Where do the "winners" go (MK or NJ) and where do the "disqualified" go?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

The believer has not been to court. We all must appear in court and a judge will rule over the things done in our bodies, whether they be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5 is to Christians right? You're part of "all" right?

1. The believer has already been to court in Christ Jesus as our Substitute: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1).

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." - 2 Corinthians 5:10​

What is the verse that you would cite which would demonstrate that you've already appeared before the judge?

2. This judgment is not in regards to our salvation but in what we have done, whether we have contributed gold, silver precious stones or wood, hay and straw.

3. But the true believer does not have to worry about the condemnation of his soul salvation.

 

[James_Newman]

1. The believer has already been to court in Christ Jesus as our Substitute: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1).



2. This judgment is not in regards to our salvation but in what we have done, whether we have contributed gold, silver precious stones or wood, hay and straw.

3. But the true believer does not have to worry about the condemnation of his soul salvation.

I'm not going to address Romans 8:1 again because it is fruitless.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

We are going to recieve the things done in the body whether it be good or bad. What is the terror of the Lord? Be not deceived, whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.

 

[skypair]

Question, What does it mean in 1 Corinthians 3:15 when he says that if your works are burned, you shall suffer loss?

To me, it appears that one can lose one's crown. Rev 3:11 says "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

It appears that Christ is saying to Philly (to me) to be ready for the rapture -- be looking for it -- because because there is a crown given to... Well, Ill let Paul tell you, 2Tim 4:8, "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

But suppose such an one got convinced that the rapture was postrib and thought "My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;..." Forget the crown. Someone conned you out of it, friend!

Also, what is the terror of the Lord as refered to in Hebrews? Was he not dealing with Christians there?

"Terror of the Lord" is in 1Cor 5:11 -- it is His judgment there upon those who are not reconciled to Him.

What I think you refer to is this -- ""fearful looking forward to of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary." This speaks about THIS LIFE. I tell you that if you have willful sin in your life, you are every day fearful of God's judgment on you as on a child of discobedience! And even of fiery indignation, as those who believe in the postrib rapture! It is a huge error to sin against God's word but people do it in act as well as in belief. And you know what that "postrib rapture" theory is? WOOD, HAY, AND STUBBLE! It's mens wisdom, thoughts and glory, and not God's! The postrib believer allowed someone else to build "wood, hay, and stubble" on his foundation!!

How's that for wrapping up the burning stubble and the losing rewards in one fell swoop?!

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

Where do the "winners" go (MK or NJ) and where do the "disqualified" go?

Winners go to the kingdom of the heavens where they will rule and reign with Christ as His bride.

Disqualified will be placed on the outside looking in.

You can not say that the gospel accounts are only to the Jews and leave it at that, because the offer of the kingdom that was given to the Jews has been taken away and is now an offer to the one new man in Christ. Therefore the biggest portion of the gospels are intended for us. There are some things that are to Israel once God returns His attention to them, but I still think we can learn some valuable lessons even from those Scriptures.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Why do you want to repent and forsake them? Is it because you fear 1,000 years in hell? Or because Jesus live in you?

It's a rhetorical question.

The rhetorical answer is Yes.

 

[Lacy Evans]

To me, it appears that one can lose one's crown. Rev 3:11 says "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

It appears that Christ is saying to Philly (to me) to be ready for the rapture -- be looking for it -- because because there is a crown given to... Well, Ill let Paul tell you, 2Tim 4:8, "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

There are several Millennial Exclusionists in my library (AE Wilson, Zane Hodges, etc.) who would strongly disagree with me on the "hell" issue. But they would agree with me (and with you, skypair) that believers lose their crown.

But I ask you this:

What is a crown? Is it just a shiny metal hat? If there is no kingdom connected to the crown, then the crown is meaningless.

How can losing a crown be anything short of losing the authority to rule?

Whether we ever agree on the issue of where those who are deemed "unfaithful servants" go after the JSOC, we are very close on the issue of exclusion from Millennial reign with Christ.

lacy

 

[TCGreek]

I'm not going to address Romans 8:1 again because it is fruitless.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

We are going to recieve the things done in the body whether it be good or bad. What is the terror of the Lord? Be not deceived, whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.

It is not my fault that you are not pleased with my answer.

 

[npetreley]

The rhetorical answer is Yes.

The question was "or", not "and".

 

[James_Newman]

It is not my fault that you are not pleased with my answer.

It has nothing to do with my pleasure. I'll say that Romans 8:1 doesn't end there, and you'll say... what?