A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[Lacy Evans]

The question was "or", not "and".

Is God three OR is he one?

Is God sovereign OR does man have free will?

Is Christ human OR is he God?

Is light particle OR is it wave?


Perhaps the question is wrong because the answer is "YES!"

 

[Lacy Evans]

It has nothing to do with my pleasure. I'll say that Romans 8:1 doesn't end there, and you'll say... what?

. . ."No doctrine is affected! No doctrine is affected, BRAWWWWK!"

 

[Rufus_1611]

It has nothing to do with my pleasure. I'll say that Romans 8:1 doesn't end there, and you'll say... what?

I just learned something...

Romans 8:1

NIV - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
NASB - Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in (C)Christ Jesus.
Amplified - THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.(A)
ESV - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a]
CEV - If you belong to Christ Jesus, you won't be punished.
NCV - So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not judged guilty.[a]
HCSB - Therefore, no condemnation (A) now exists for those in (B) Christ Jesus, (C) [a]

KJV - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

...it would appear that this is yet another case of everyone not reading from the same book. I couldn't figure out why the anti-MEs kept truncating the verse, I guess this is why.

 

[npetreley]

...it would appear that this is yet another case of everyone not reading from the same book. I couldn't figure out why the anti-MEs kept truncating the verse, I guess this is why.

Did I truncate this passage when I quoted it?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Did I truncate this passage when I quoted it?

Beats me and with the search functions broken I don't want to figure it out but I do know it has been truncated more than once in this thread. If you quoted the whole verse do you believe the whole verse?

 

[npetreley]

Beats me and with the search functions broken I don't want to figure it out but I do know it has been truncated more than once in this thread. If you quoted the whole verse do you believe the whole verse?

Yes, of course I believe the whole verse. But you see the second part as a condition. I see it as a result.

 

[TCGreek]

Beats me and with the search functions broken I don't want to figure it out but I do know it has been truncated more than once in this thread. If you quoted the whole verse do you believe the whole verse?

1. What truncating are you referring to?

2. What is your point?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Yes, of course I believe the whole verse. But you see the second part as a condition. I see it as a result.

What happens if you don't see the result?

 

[Rufus_1611]

1. What truncating are you referring to?

2. What is your point?

I listed them out and I stated my point.

 

[Amy.G]

I just learned something...

Romans 8:1

NIV - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
NASB - Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in (C)Christ Jesus.
Amplified - THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.(A)
ESV - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a]
CEV - If you belong to Christ Jesus, you won't be punished.
NCV - So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not judged guilty.[a]
HCSB - Therefore, no condemnation (A) now exists for those in (B) Christ Jesus, (C) [a]

KJV - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

...it would appear that this is yet another case of everyone not reading from the same book. I couldn't figure out why the anti-MEs kept truncating the verse, I guess this is why.

Rufus, if you read the entire context, you will see that it is talking about unsaved(flesh), saved (spirit).

The KJV doesn't say something different, it says the same thing a different way.

 

[James_Newman]

Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[TCGreek]

I listed them out and I stated my point.

What is that point? It seems like it got lost in all that translation traffic.

 

[Rufus_1611]

What is that point? It seems like it got lost in all that translation traffic.

I can't make it more clear than what I stated other than to restate it the way I stated it. If you lost it, it is still there waiting to be found.

 

[TCGreek]

Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1. I'm an Alexandrian Text type guy.

2. At any rate, I will address your point from my apparatus: ουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα : "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"( Romans 8:1, KJV)

3. The bolded is not in the Alexandrian and Western Texts.

4. Those who are in Christ are those who do not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. Not condition but result of being in Christ, according to Npetrely.

5. There's nothing that says or suggests that we need to take a conditional reading of this wonderful text.

 

[npetreley]

Rufus,

I think one reason I didn't truncate the verse is because I tend to use the NKJV, which does not truncate it. HOWEVER... It is disingenuous, to say the least, to truncate alternate versions like the NIV and then complain that people have truncated the KJV. I don't like the NIV, personally, but here's what it says:

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus[a], 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

[a] Romans 8:1 Some later manuscripts Jesus, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit,

There are THREE important things you left out.

FIRST, there is a footnote that shows later manuscripts have the part about walking according to the Spirit.

SECOND, the rest of the passage qualifies our freedom from condemnation. It is because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. So to imply that the part that was truncted means we have to obey the law in order to avoid condemnation is INCREDIBLY disingenous. The rest of the verse says we were freed from exactly that!

THIRD, The qualification, "who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit" DOES appear in the NIV, but it appears later, in the same place it is repeated in the KJV.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So your little tirade about non-KJV versions fails, big time.

 

[TCGreek]

Rufus,

I think one reason I didn't truncate the verse is because I tend to use the NKJV, which does not truncate it. HOWEVER... It is disingenuous, to say the least, to truncate alternate versions like the NIV and then complain that people have truncated the KJV. I don't like the NIV, personally, but here's what it says:


There are THREE important things you left out.

FIRST, there is a footnote that shows later manuscripts have the part about walking according to the Spirit.

SECOND, the rest of the passage qualifies our freedom from condemnation. It is because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. So to imply that the part that was truncted means we have to obey the law in order to avoid condemnation is INCREDIBLY disingenous. The rest of the verse says we were freed from exactly that!

THIRD, The qualification, "who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit" DOES appear in the NIV, but it appears later, in the same place it is repeated in the KJV.


So your little tirade about non-KJV versions fails, big time.

Ably done! :thumbs:

Thanks.

 

[J. Jump]

5. There's nothing that says or suggests that we need to take a conditional reading of this wonderful text.

This is another one of those texts that "can be" read either way and still be a correct reading. Therefore you can not say dogmatically that there is nothing in the text to suggest a conditional reading, because that's simply not true. Just as much there is nothing in the text that says it has to be a conditional reading.

This is a text where the meaning can only be shown by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

And since it is possible for the saved to walk after the flesh instead of after the Spirit a conditional reading is needed. If it were an impossibility to walk after the flesh and only be able to walk after the Spirit then your reading would be correct.

 

[Amy.G]

Romans 8:1-17
You must read the entire passage to understand what Paul is saying, not just 1 verse out of context.


Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

If you have the Spirit in you, you are not in the flesh.

He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

This whole passage is contrasting saved and unsaved. Those who have the Spirit in them are not in the flesh, they belong to Christ. Those without the Spirit do not belong to Christ, they are in the flesh.

 

[James_Newman]

1. I'm an Alexandrian Text type guy.

2. At any rate, I will address your point from my apparatus: ουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα : "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"( Romans 8:1, KJV)

3. The bolded is not in the Alexandrian and Western Texts.

4. Those who are in Christ are those who do not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. Not condition but result of being in Christ, according to Npetrely.

5. There's nothing that says or suggests that we need to take a conditional reading of this wonderful text.

Lets take this text as you like it, walking after the spirit is the result of being in Christ. Is 'in Christ' synonymous with 'saved by faith'? If it is, then wouldn't that mean someone walking after the flesh is not saved? I would not have a problem with saying that walking after the spirit is a result of being in Christ, if by in Christ you mean 'abiding in Christ' as Christ Himself tells us
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
But if we attach the condition of abiding in Christ to eternal salvation, then it isn't by grace alone any more.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Rufus,

I think one reason I didn't truncate the verse is because I tend to use the NKJV, which does not truncate it. HOWEVER... It is disingenuous, to say the least, to truncate alternate versions like the NIV and then complain that people have truncated the KJV. I don't like the NIV, personally, but here's what it says:


There are THREE important things you left out.

FIRST, there is a footnote that shows later manuscripts have the part about walking according to the Spirit.

Footnotes? What are they, wannabe scripture? I'm a scripture guy, that's the only thing my Lord said was inspired and I see no evidence that He inspired footnotes.

SECOND, the rest of the passage qualifies our freedom from condemnation. It is because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. So to imply that the part that was truncted means we have to obey the law in order to avoid condemnation is INCREDIBLY disingenous. The rest of the verse says we were freed from exactly that!

I was trying to figure out why individuals in this thread were leaving off significant portions of that verse. I thought they were self-truncating in order to support their position. It turns out their Bible truncated it so, now I believe I understand the issue relative to Romans 8:1.

THIRD, The qualification, "who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit" DOES appear in the NIV, but it appears later, in the same place it is repeated in the KJV.

Is that place Romans 8:1?

So your little tirade about non-KJV versions fails, big time.

Tirade? I just found something that I thought was valuable and shared it. I thought it might help us come together on why we are in disagreement on such basic matters. I guess it didn't help, my apologies.