Abbreviated Word Study G2523, kathizete

[Van]

The flaws were addressed and either corrected, deleting one verse where the word did not appear in the Critical text, and the other "flaw" was shown not to be an actual flaw, because reflexive pronouns are sometimes used with active verbs in Koine Greek, the Greek of scripture.

And to the contrary, the primary observation derived from the study is that the translators leave out the literal meaning that is there in the text, and pour in words with meanings from elsewhere.

 

[Yeshua1]

The flaws were addressed and either corrected, deleting one verse where the word did not appear in the Critical text, and the other "flaw" was shown not to be an actual flaw, because reflexive pronouns are sometimes used with active verbs in Koine Greek, the Greek of scripture.

And to the contrary, the primary observation derived from the study is that the translators leave out the literal meaning that is there in the text, and pour in words with meanings from elsewhere.

You do realise that atimes, their views on the best way to approach the translating of original languages into English will determined how "literal" to use, correct?

 

[Van]

I do realize the word for word translation philosophy verses are the most literal, and the best starting point for word studies. With the stated goal of concordance and transparency, word studies show where different versions hit the mark or miss the mark.

Here, in this thread, we are looking at usages where our word, G2523, is used to convey seating a person for the purpose of judging or ruling a dispute. The transparent and concordant choice, "seat" or "seated himself, seated myself, and seated themselves, conveys the actual literal and contextual word meaning.

 

[Rippon]

To say "seated himself" is reflexive (i.e. middle voice in Greek). Active voice is simply "he sat." The action of sitting is less important than the place of sitting... the judgment seat.

From Post #6.

 

[Van]

Yet another repeat of a bogus claim. Rippon does not seem to grasp that the "flaw" was shown not to be an actual flaw, because reflexive pronouns are sometimes used with active verbs in Koine Greek, the Greek of scripture.

Both the NASB translators at Matthew 23:2 and the Apostle John himself, at 1 John 5:21 use reflexive pronouns (himself, yourself, myself, etc) with active voice verbs. Thus my translation "seated himself" is not grammatically flawed when viewed broadly as is found in koine Greek.

 

[Rippon]

Do you disagree with Greektim when he said that :"The action of sitting is less important than the place of sitting...the judgment seat."

 

[Van]

In this thread, we are looking at usages where our word, G2523, is used to convey seating a person for the purpose of judging or ruling a dispute. The transparent and concordant choice, "seat" or "seated himself, seated myself, and seated themselves, conveys the actual literal and contextual word meaning. Therefore the purpose seems most important to me.

 

[Rippon]

Oh, you want to discuss positions of posture to further our understanding. I see...

 

[Van]

Oh, you want to discuss positions of posture to further our understanding. I see...

Rippon asked the question in post #26 , and now claims I want to discuss it. Just another effort to derail the thread and provide no on topic content.

In this thread, we are looking at usages where our word, G2523, is used to convey seating a person for the purpose of judging or ruling a dispute. The transparent and concordant choice, "seat" or "seated himself, seated myself, and seated themselves, conveys the actual literal and contextual word meaning. Therefore the purpose seems most important to me.

 

[Van]

Word for word translation philosophy versions, i.e. NASB, are the most literal, and the best starting point for word studies. With the stated goals of concordance and fidelity, word studies show if and when different versions reach those goals, i.e. hit the mark or miss the mark.

We are looking at usages where our word, G2523, kathizo, is used to convey seating a person for the purpose of judging or ruling a dispute. The concordant choices of "seat" or "seated himself" or "seated myself" and "seated themselves," convey the actual literal and contextual word meaning.

 

[Rippon]

The concordant choices of "seat" or "seated himself" or "seated myself" and "seated themselves," convey the actual literal and contextual word meaning.

A so-called "literal" rendering is often at cross-purposes with a contextual meaning.

 

[Van]

In this thread, we are looking at usages where our word, G2523, is used to convey seating a person for the purpose of judging or ruling a dispute. The transparent and concordant choice, "seat" or "seated himself, seated myself, and seated themselves, conveys the actual literal and contextual word meaning.

 

[Rippon]

A so-called "literal" rendering is often at cross-purposes with a contextual meaning.

The above is true, but Van cannot see the light.

 

[Van]

The concordant choices of "seat" or "seated himself" or "seated myself" and "seated themselves," convey the actual literal and contextual word meaning.

No need to change the subject.

 

[Rippon]

I will say this about the NASB and their translation of the verb in question in Matt. 23:2. They translated the aorist verb as "have seated" instead of the simple past "sat". However, to say "they have seated in the chair of Moses" is bad English. In this case, the "themselves" is supplied not to indicate a reflexive understanding of the verb but to make better translation. So this is not a case that proves your point. Granted, they could have rendered it "they have sat in the chair...". But that changes the force that the aorist is trying to convey.

Also, your understanding of the middle voice is inaccurate. Middle voice in the reflexive sense (there are other ways it can be used) is simply an action done to one's self. For example, in Spanish, you don't bathe but rather you bathe yourself (banarse not banar). Greek has words that are like this, the reflexive is built in. Your G2523 is not one of them, however.

Your case that you have presented is flawed. That is what I'm trying to point out. You pick and choose translations like the NASB that seem to fit whatever agenda you have (not certain which here). But even your reasoning was incorrect in the NASB rendering.

Perhaps "seated himself" is an accurate translation of kathizo in the active voice, but there are better words and clearer ways to say that in Greek. And so I would not force the nuance that you seem to want. That was my point.

And this is my point about word studies... you want to put more in words than are really there...usually

From August 16,2014.

 

[Van]

Rippon does not even grasp that that Greektim was agreeing that "seated himself" is a valid translation of kathizo. What he was saying is that other choices would be better in his opinion. My view that seated himself best rendered the Greek was not based on changing an active verb to the middle voice, because it does not, as shown in Matthew 23:2.

 

[Rippon]

Since you didn't catch it the first two times I will highlight some relevant sentences from Greektim's August 16th post.

: So this is not a case that proves your point.
: Your case that you have presented is flawed.
: You pick and choose [what seems] to fit whatever agenda you have
: And this is my point about [your] word studies...you want to put more in words than are really there...usually.

 

[Van]

Rippon still cannot grasp, or pretends he is unable to grasp what Greektim said.

I did not say, nor suggest I was making a point that it was ok to change an active verb into middle voice.

My case was not flawed, koine Greek does have examples of the use of reflexive pronouns with active verbs. Greektim was mistaken.

All my word studies are based on the NASB95, I do not pick and choose (translation shop) to support an agenda.

I did not put anything (a shade of meaning) that is not found in lexicons.

 

[Greektim]

Rippon still cannot grasp, or pretends he is unable to grasp what Greektim said.

I did not say, nor suggest I was making a point that it was ok to change an active verb into middle voice.

My case was not flawed, koine Greek does have examples of the use of reflexive pronouns with active verbs. Greektim was mistaken.

All my word studies are based on the NASB95, I do not pick and choose (translation shop) to support an agenda.

I did not put anything (a shade of meaning) that is not found in lexicons.

Can you demonstrate where I even once mentioned anything to do w/ a reflexive pronoun and an active voice verb? I think it is you who misunderstood me.

 

[Van]

Hi Greektim, did I say you did? Words have meanings the meanings have merit.

I did not say, nor suggest I was making a point that it was ok to change an active verb into middle voice.