Abiding in Christ: The Real Meaning Confronts an Error of Calvinism John 15:1-8

Those who do not abide in Him lose their salvation, in answer to a previous question. That's very clear from this parable.

 

Only if you maintain this teaches they were saved in the first place. I do not believe they were ever saved.

peace to youraying:

 

If I may:

There is another verse of scripture similar in much detail to verse 6 about throwing something akin to those branches into the fire to be burned. Now fire is representive of judgment but let me ask you - Which one? Salvation? No since this is not what Alex is saying but he is maintaining they ARE saved nor does scripture EVER declare such non-sense. So it MUST be about friut which are our works. (now I don't agree to the extreme he takes his argument but I want you to evalute this scripture in light verse 6)

Here is verse 6

Nor the corrisponding verse of 1 Cor 3:15 which deals with the Bema Seat Judgment of Christians:

The verse above shows our works as believes can be unprofitable to our Lord and in His judgment He will reveal it to their loss (of rewards) BUT he shall be saved.

Here is the verse in it's context so you don't have to go looking for it:

I (unlike Alex) believe every believer will have some gold, silver, or stone but many will build upon that foundation more with hay and stubble. I say everyone will have some measure though some may not have great amounts (and I believe this group is not a large one but small or the minority) because of the new creation they have become and have been transformed to no longer 'have to be' under the bondage of sin but due to our will (or the resposiblitiy of man) we can still greive the Holy Spirit and we can still suffer loss.

I am only showing that this passage is more about the fruit or better our works and not about salvation. The implication is definately there and the continuation to abide is specific with due regard to those who are saved but the context is works or fruit and not specifically about salvation .

Thus it shows a believer will maintain in faith but they might not continue to grow or maintain in works.

 

Alllan, you are saying that the branches are our works?

That's not what the Bible says.


Jhn 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. It doesn't say our works are the branches.

 

I didn't say the 'branches were works'. The text regards the branches producing fruit by abiding in the vine (dependent upon it for that fruit).

We ARE the branches and to produce fruit as branches we work in unison with Christ. Notice Christ states "apart from me YOU can do nothing" this is with regard to bearing fruit. You do not MAKE fruit but the fruit is made through proper fellowship in the vine which IS our works. Again the key is the word with regard to fruitfulness is 'abiding' which illistates a state of rest through which Christ is free to work. But what happens when the branch tries to supercede the vine and do it's own thing and therefore of itself tries to produce fruit. Nothing, it is fruitless because something has happened to union or fellowship between the Vine and the branch. But also it is not that Christ does it all in us and we do nothing. The outworking of abiding in the vine is manifested in our daily lives in which we are to die daily to self and offer ourselves as sacrifices for Him. We yeild ourselves to Him and thus abide in that which He does through us. Thus my quoting the 1 Cor passage which illistrates the same context. God will not use an unprofitiable servent nor will He exalt a disobedient child but reprove both. God can and has removed many from service through their part in sin. So I wasn't mistating scripture you just need to read slower Amy :laugh:

Editted for a little better clarification concerning my post.

 

Ok. :laugh: I may not be reading well tonight. It's been a long day. I think I'll just practice my reading for awhile and save my posts for tomorrow. :laugh:

 

Amy, Secrets of the Vine by Wilkinson is a good read on that parable.

In that parable, "you are the branches" is referring to us individually as making up the whole...all of the branches, not each believer being a separate branch. Look at it like this, when you are trying to garner as much fruit from the vine as possible, you cut off some branches, those that aren't bearing fruit, and those that are impeding the branches that are. We are the branches as a whole, and those that are bad are cut off, so those that are good remain and can bear fruit (we still remain the branches).

I think most believers take that parable as if you don't bear fruit, you are only one of the branches on the vine, and if you are cut off, you are either lost, or have lost your salvation, when in reality we make up ALL of the branches, and those things in life that take away from our fruitfullness (the bad parts of us) are cut off...not that WE are cut off.

 

I'll check it out. Thanks.

Time for :sleeping_2: .

I think I'm incoherant.:laugh:

 

Your silly

 

Your right faith is the means. We must believe even though our faith doesn't save us. In another Parable of the sower we have seed that is the word being received and believed in but they never put down roots. I believe that Salvation begins at belief and is sealed at Justification. Many believe there is a Christ and even believe what the word says about Him but still aren't saved. The reason could be it was just a passing fancy, they lost interest. If they've never submitted, either because they were distracted or a lack of follow up teaching. They aren't saved because of a moment of belief. There belief wasn't complete.
Myself for a long time I believe but until I submitted, I wasn't saved. Belief doesn't Guarantee us Salvation. Commitment does. I guess it depends on how we define belief. I define it to myself slightly different now than I did before Salvation. Now belief has become knowing Christ. Before Salvation it was believing in Him with out knowing Him. You can't really come to know Christ with out knowing as much as you can about Him . No relationship starts off complete it has to grow, and a relationship isn't solid until it does grow.

Fruits are those gracious dispositions and habits, that are produced by the Holy Spirit with in the saved man or woman. Can a man be saved with out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? I don't believe so. My Salvation started with the Holy Spirit and when I submitted He completed it. I don't believe for a minute we can be saved looking for a way to escape the consequences of future sins and be able to keep on sinning with out consequence. God will correct those who do not confess and receive forgiveness. He did Jonah. Being saved for me is about a renewed relationship with God. This isn't to say I don't sin from time to time certainly I like everyone else slip up more than I really want to admit. Even though my sins are forgiven past, present, and future. Salvation for me isn't about sinning and getting away with it. We are not under the power of the Law, we are under Grace and we should try not to abuse that Grace not because it's God's Law but because we should love God with all that we have and are. I have submitted to His will and it isn't something I can repent of. When I submitted I became His property I no longer consider myself ruler of my own self but God is now my ruler.
Being Justified for me means that I wear the righteousness of Christ provided for me at the cross. After Salvation we wear the new man the old is passed away.
MB

 

Allan: I appreciate your post. Let's take a look at the passages you have quoted:

My first response, like Amy G., is that the passages in John 15:6 is speaking of people. The passage in I Cor. is speaking of works of people.

My second point would be that the I Cor. passage is not speaking of the Bema Seat judgement, though I know many believe it is. A close look at the context shows otherwise.

The "works" here are the works of the teachers/leaders in the church. The Corinthian church was breaking into factions based on teachers. Paul is saying that he has laid the foundation (Christ and Him crucified), and that others are building on that foundation. ("The building" is the followers under the care of the leader)

The building materials (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble) are the "teachings" or "doctrine". They are all burned in fire (precious stones are the "room-sized" blocks of stone used in contruction, not diamonds or rubies). The fire is the persecution of the church. (not the Bema Seat judgement). Thus, all doctrine is tested by the fire of persecution.

Paul's point is that leaders must teach the truth of the coming persecution of Christians. All who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. The test of the truthfulness of their teaching will be how well their followers stand for the faith in the midst of persecution. If they "abide" in the faith, they (their teachers) will receive a reward in heaven for the faithfulness of their teaching. If all fall away, they suffer the loss of the reward, though they, themselves, are still saved, if they did, in fact, stand fast during the persecution (fire).

I think if you read it closely you will see that is the context.

I agree with you. If you apply that belief to the John 15 passage, then those that produce no fruit must be unbelievers. If you maintain all believers will produce some fruit, though at various levels.

I'm not sure which passage you are refering to here. The John 15 passage is clearly demonstrating that disciples of Christ are proved to be so by the fruit they produce.

Again, I appreciate your post and the thoughts expressed.

peace to youraying:

 

And yet 1 peter 1:5 tells us that our salvation is "kept" by God's Power not our own.

In 1 John 2:19 he writes that those that left the church left because they were not one of them. If they had been they would have stayed. I disagree with irresistbale grace but those of the Reformed Theology are spot on with regards to this.

 

Kept

We are kept by God's power through faith.

When it comes to being cut out it is being cut out from being His child. To those who believed He gave them the right to be children of God.

It is those who endure to the end that will be saved. Trusting in the Faith that God has given to us through His word. We are kept by God through His word not our own, so we are depending on God that those who believe shall be saved.

If God didn't know who they were He wouldn't be God.

 

Good scriptural support Amen.
MB

 

This phrase seems to be contradictory. At first you state that those who endure will be saved...but then we are dependant on God to be saved. Which is it? Do we need to endure...or do we need to depend on God?

 

yes...........................................................

 

Faith

Faith my brother enduring to the end trusting in God our Father through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter what men may say or not say trust in the words of our Lord not the words of men.