Abiding in Christ: The Real Meaning Confronts an Error of Calvinism John 15:1-8

[Alex Quackenbush]

Alex, you did not deal with the entire papable. How are we to understand these former "true believers" are now being "cut off", gathered and "burned"? Isn't this an analogy our Lord used frequently to refer to hell? Did they loose their salvation? Was God not able to "keep them" and "not lose any" as our

Lord promised?

To burn wood is NOT by default a synonymous idea with hell and is not at all places and all times used that way so it is INCUMBENT upon you to prove this is its use instead of ASSUMING its use and this is what you have done. And in fact, here, particularly in the context, the burning is descriptive of what results of branches that DID grow from the vine but did not bear fruit. They are burned, i.e. they are not used. But to suddenly refer to "did not lose any" is to depart from this text and impose upon it ANOTHER text.

Permit me if you will to quote an excellent summation by Derickson

The viticultural use of kathairei, which described the removal of sprouts from fruiting branches, should inform the meaning of airei. Both actions occurring simultaneously, the verse looks at the farmer’s care for all the branches belonging to the vine, whether fruiting or not. That v 6 looks at the fall, postharvest pruning is seen in the practice of burning all the wood not attached to the vine. Thus even if v 6 is seen as teaching a judgment on those who do not abide in Christ, it cannot be used to inform the meaning of v 2. They are separate practices from opposite ends of the season and would have been understood as such by the apostles.

Jesus’ message to His disciples was that, though He was departing, the Father was still caring for them. To bear the fruit God intended, they needed to continue to rely on Jesus and to respond to His instruction. If they chose not to “abide,” they would not bear fruit and would therefore not be used by God.

Do you believe they lost their salvation? Is God sending them to be punished somewhere other than hell, and that they will then go to heaven? Are you saying they loose their place in the Kingdom as the exculsionists claim? Exactly what are you saying about these people?

To ask if I believe they have lost their salvation gives me the distinct impression you failed to carefully read my post. But for the most simple response so you won't have to ask again, I am saying those who did not abide are believers that DID NOT abide in Christ and the contextual use and exegetical evidence is that it is a post-salvational use.

Wait just a second. Jesus said "4Abide in me, and I in you" The abiding is, in fact, done by Jesus as well as believers. Is Jesus giving us the command to force Him (Jesus) to abide in us? We certainly can't force Jesus to do anything, can we? Is Jesus saying He is going to abide in us, but only as long as we abide in Him? Isn't a relationship a "two-way" street, if you will. If we stumble and fall, will Jesus say, "Well, there you go again. I've had enough of this. Let's cut him off, gather him up, and burn him."?I don't see the command to "believe" in the text, Alex. Do you see it somewhere? The command is to "abide" in Christ, produce fruit proving you are His disciples, and by doing so bring glory to God the Father.So, our relationship with Christ is a one-way street? Our will toward Jesus, but not His will toward us?

First "abide in me" is a command and yes, if you abide in Christ he will abide in you. It is a promise. If you follow the command given for YOU to ABIDE in Christ (receive your nourishment then you will get that nourishment to bear fruit). You aren't MAKING Jesus do anything, he is promising what HE will do IF YOU will do something, ABIDE in Him. What I believe you are failing to understand is the use here. "I am the vine you are the branches...without me you can do nothing". If you abide in Christ (this is a command give to you that you must do) then the result will be Christ abiding in you.

Is Christ referring to the doctrine of the divine residency of the Shekinah glory for church age believers or is he pointing out something more simple, that if you abide in him (the branch staying attached to the vine) then the result will be the nourishment you need described as "I in you" abiding in you?

If one removes himself from fellowship with Christ with certainty Christ is not introducing the doctrine that no longer is a person saved and Christ no longer takes up residency in the believer.

Most obvious is that any believer will tell you that at anytime there are points where one has not abided in Christ. Even MacArthur admits that. SO if not abiding results in Christ no longer residing in the believer then we do have a problem.

What Christ is referring to is the analogous NOURISHMENT that the vine provides. And that nourishment is centered in and through the Word of God. The descriptive use of "abide in me and I in you" reflects this.

Alex, what of our Lord's statement at the end, that the fruits demonstrate they are disciples. He is not saying the ones that were "cut off" and "burned" are disciples, too, is He? Jesus made the distinction to show that those who produce fruit are real disciples and the others were not.

It seems to me the "calvinist" view looks at the whole of the passage, and understands it rightly in relationship with other texts on the subject.

You have looked at part of the passage and simply generated more questions than you have answered.

peace to youraying:

I have no dispute that is one bears fruit that it demonstrates they are a disciple of Christ. But being a disciple and being saved are not synonymous. There is no guarantee that all believers will be disciples.

As far as generating questions, any questions I have generated I have answered so I am not aware of any not answered that I have asked.

I will say this, you are the first person yet to attempt to deal with the TEXT. Thank you.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Hi Alex.
There is a little something I think maybe you have over looked. I believe it's justification. Any fruit I have, I certainly hope it was produced by Christ' Spirit. There are a lot of people who claim Christ who are so far away from Christ they just don't ever consider Him the ruler of there lives.

I'm not exactly a Calvinist and most who know me here could vouch for that. However I believe in the OSAS position though not exactly like Calvinist do. You have an interesting point but the fact is it isn't really up to us who is saved and who isn't, it's up to Christ. We believe and we even have some faith but it isn't our faith that saves us. This is where I think you may be confused. I would encourage you to read all of Galations 2.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If you will notice that Justification is by the faith of Christ. If it were by the faith of men I could see your point but the faith of Christ is perfect faith. This verse acknowledges that we believe that we might be justified. It doesn't say we will be.

If you could show where we are saved by our faith I would consider it. The problem you would have to over come to do this of course is show that the faith of Christ isn't as perfect as I have believed.

Those branches you spoke of I thought I might suggest a solution to the question of them.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


We have to submit, everyone of us. This means our will to His the Jews wouldn't have it. they rejected Christ and when they did they couldn't produce any fruit and they were cut off and well you know the rest.
MB

Your post is appreciated and deals with an important topic but no one has left it out in the discussion and debate regarding the parable.

Your faith doesn't save you, indeed, but Christ does but Christ promised that if you "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt be saved". Faith is the means to appropriate salvation.

As far as justification, it is not based on someone's life or how well they live for the Lord as you well know so how rotten a believer is...is irrelevant regarding justification.

 

[JustChristian]

Those who do not abide in Him lose their salvation, in answer to a previous question. That's very clear from this parable.

 

[canadyjd]

Alex, you did not deal with the entire papable. How are we to understand these former "true believers" are now being "cut off", gathered and "burned"? Isn't this an analogy our Lord used frequently to refer to hell? Did they loose their salvation?

Alex Quackenbush:To burn wood is NOT by default a synonymous idea with hell and is not at all places and all times used that way so it is INCUMBENT upon you to prove this is its use instead of ASSUMING its use and this is what you have done.

I didn't say it was, by default, at all places and times used that way. I asked if our Lord frequently used the analogy to refer to hell. The answer is yes, even if that isn't convenient for what you want the text to mean.

They are burned, i.e. they are not used.

So you maintain this is refering to believers that are simply not used by God for anything. Can you show me anyplace else where Jesus Christ refers to believers in such a way?

What I believe you are failing to understand is the use here. "I am the vine you are the branches...without me you can do nothing". If you abide in Christ (this is a command give to you that you must do) then the result will be Christ abiding in you.

What you fail to understand is that if this is "a command that you must do", then all true disciples will, in fact, obey the command.

I have no dispute that is one bears fruit that it demonstrates they are a disciple of Christ. But being a disciple and being saved are not synonymous. There is no guarantee that all believers will be disciples.

And here we disagree. A disciple will go through various levels of maturity, but being saved does mean being a disciple.

John 3:19-21 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. (20) For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (21) But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Again, two types of people.

1. The unsaved. Those who love darkness and stay in darkness, do evil, hate the light. They do not come to the light (abide in Jesus) because it will expose their deeds (fruit) as being evil.

2. The saved. The disciples. They come to the light. They practice the truth (abide in Christ). Their deeds (fruit) are manifested (exposed) as having their source in Almighty God.

There is no mention of a third type of person that practice the truth but yet, stays in the darkness. All that stay in the darkness love evil. All that practice the truth come to the light. Just two types.

I will say this, you are the first person yet to attempt to deal with the TEXT. Thank you.

Your welcome.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Those who do not abide in Him lose their salvation, in answer to a previous question. That's very clear from this parable.

Only if you maintain this teaches they were saved in the first place. I do not believe they were ever saved.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

I didn't say it was, by default, at all places and times used that way. I asked if our Lord frequently used the analogy to refer to hell. The answer is yes, even if that isn't convenient for what you want the text to mean. So you maintain this is refering to believers that are simply not used by God for anything. Can you show me anyplace else where Jesus Christ refers to believers in such a way?

If I may:

There is another verse of scripture similar in much detail to verse 6 about throwing something akin to those branches into the fire to be burned. Now fire is representive of judgment but let me ask you - Which one? Salvation? No since this is not what Alex is saying but he is maintaining they ARE saved nor does scripture EVER declare such non-sense. So it MUST be about friut which are our works. (now I don't agree to the extreme he takes his argument but I want you to evalute this scripture in light verse 6)

Here is verse 6

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Nor the corrisponding verse of 1 Cor 3:15 which deals with the Bema Seat Judgment of Christians:

1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The verse above shows our works as believes can be unprofitable to our Lord and in His judgment He will reveal it to their loss (of rewards) BUT he shall be saved.

Here is the verse in it's context so you don't have to go looking for it:

1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I (unlike Alex) believe every believer will have some gold, silver, or stone but many will build upon that foundation more with hay and stubble. I say everyone will have some measure though some may not have great amounts (and I believe this group is not a large one but small or the minority) because of the new creation they have become and have been transformed to no longer 'have to be' under the bondage of sin but due to our will (or the resposiblitiy of man) we can still greive the Holy Spirit and we can still suffer loss.

I am only showing that this passage is more about the fruit or better our works and not about salvation. The implication is definately there and the continuation to abide is specific with due regard to those who are saved but the context is works or fruit and not specifically about salvation .

Thus it shows a believer will maintain in faith but they might not continue to grow or maintain in works.

 

[Amy.G]

Alllan, you are saying that the branches are our works?

That's not what the Bible says.


Jhn 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. It doesn't say our works are the branches.

 

[Allan]

Alllan, you are saying that the branches are our works?

That's not what the Bible says.


Jhn 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. It doesn't say our works are the branches.

I didn't say the 'branches were works'. The text regards the branches producing fruit by abiding in the vine (dependent upon it for that fruit).

We ARE the branches and to produce fruit as branches we work in unison with Christ. Notice Christ states "apart from me YOU can do nothing" this is with regard to bearing fruit. You do not MAKE fruit but the fruit is made through proper fellowship in the vine which IS our works. Again the key is the word with regard to fruitfulness is 'abiding' which illistates a state of rest through which Christ is free to work. But what happens when the branch tries to supercede the vine and do it's own thing and therefore of itself tries to produce fruit. Nothing, it is fruitless because something has happened to union or fellowship between the Vine and the branch. But also it is not that Christ does it all in us and we do nothing. The outworking of abiding in the vine is manifested in our daily lives in which we are to die daily to self and offer ourselves as sacrifices for Him. We yeild ourselves to Him and thus abide in that which He does through us. Thus my quoting the 1 Cor passage which illistrates the same context. God will not use an unprofitiable servent nor will He exalt a disobedient child but reprove both. God can and has removed many from service through their part in sin. So I wasn't mistating scripture you just need to read slower Amy :laugh:

Editted for a little better clarification concerning my post.

 

[Amy.G]

I didn't say the 'branches were works'. The text regards the branches producing fruit by abiding in the vine (dependent upon it for that fruit).

We ARE the branches and to produce fruit as branches we work in unison with Christ. Notice Christ states "apart from me YOU can do nothing". Not that Christ does it all in us and we do nothing. Thus my quoting the 1 Cor passage which illistrates the same context. So I wasn't mistating scripture you just need to read slower Amy :laugh:

Ok. :laugh: I may not be reading well tonight. It's been a long day. I think I'll just practice my reading for awhile and save my posts for tomorrow. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Amy, Secrets of the Vine by Wilkinson is a good read on that parable.

In that parable, "you are the branches" is referring to us individually as making up the whole...all of the branches, not each believer being a separate branch. Look at it like this, when you are trying to garner as much fruit from the vine as possible, you cut off some branches, those that aren't bearing fruit, and those that are impeding the branches that are. We are the branches as a whole, and those that are bad are cut off, so those that are good remain and can bear fruit (we still remain the branches).

I think most believers take that parable as if you don't bear fruit, you are only one of the branches on the vine, and if you are cut off, you are either lost, or have lost your salvation, when in reality we make up ALL of the branches, and those things in life that take away from our fruitfullness (the bad parts of us) are cut off...not that WE are cut off.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, Secrets of the Vine by Wilkinson is a good read on that parable.

I'll check it out. Thanks.

Time for :sleeping_2: .

I think I'm incoherant.:laugh:

 

[Allan]

Ok. :laugh: I may not be reading well tonight. It's been a long day. I think I'll just practice my reading for awhile and save my posts for tomorrow. :laugh:

Your silly

 

[MB]

Your post is appreciated and deals with an important topic but no one has left it out in the discussion and debate regarding the parable.
Your faith doesn't save you, indeed, but Christ does but Christ promised that if you "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt be saved". Faith is the means to appropriate salvation.

Your right faith is the means. We must believe even though our faith doesn't save us. In another Parable of the sower we have seed that is the word being received and believed in but they never put down roots. I believe that Salvation begins at belief and is sealed at Justification. Many believe there is a Christ and even believe what the word says about Him but still aren't saved. The reason could be it was just a passing fancy, they lost interest. If they've never submitted, either because they were distracted or a lack of follow up teaching. They aren't saved because of a moment of belief. There belief wasn't complete.
Myself for a long time I believe but until I submitted, I wasn't saved. Belief doesn't Guarantee us Salvation. Commitment does. I guess it depends on how we define belief. I define it to myself slightly different now than I did before Salvation. Now belief has become knowing Christ. Before Salvation it was believing in Him with out knowing Him. You can't really come to know Christ with out knowing as much as you can about Him . No relationship starts off complete it has to grow, and a relationship isn't solid until it does grow.

As far as justification, it is not based on someone's life or how well they live for the Lord as you well know so how rotten a believer is...is irrelevant regarding justification.

Fruits are those gracious dispositions and habits, that are produced by the Holy Spirit with in the saved man or woman. Can a man be saved with out the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? I don't believe so. My Salvation started with the Holy Spirit and when I submitted He completed it. I don't believe for a minute we can be saved looking for a way to escape the consequences of future sins and be able to keep on sinning with out consequence. God will correct those who do not confess and receive forgiveness. He did Jonah. Being saved for me is about a renewed relationship with God. This isn't to say I don't sin from time to time certainly I like everyone else slip up more than I really want to admit. Even though my sins are forgiven past, present, and future. Salvation for me isn't about sinning and getting away with it. We are not under the power of the Law, we are under Grace and we should try not to abuse that Grace not because it's God's Law but because we should love God with all that we have and are. I have submitted to His will and it isn't something I can repent of. When I submitted I became His property I no longer consider myself ruler of my own self but God is now my ruler.
Being Justified for me means that I wear the righteousness of Christ provided for me at the cross. After Salvation we wear the new man the old is passed away.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

Allan: I appreciate your post. Let's take a look at the passages you have quoted:

There is another verse of scripture similar in much detail to verse 6 about throwing something akin to those branches into the fire to be burned.

1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

My first response, like Amy G., is that the passages in John 15:6 is speaking of people. The passage in I Cor. is speaking of works of people.

My second point would be that the I Cor. passage is not speaking of the Bema Seat judgement, though I know many believe it is. A close look at the context shows otherwise.

The "works" here are the works of the teachers/leaders in the church. The Corinthian church was breaking into factions based on teachers. Paul is saying that he has laid the foundation (Christ and Him crucified), and that others are building on that foundation. ("The building" is the followers under the care of the leader)

The building materials (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble) are the "teachings" or "doctrine". They are all burned in fire (precious stones are the "room-sized" blocks of stone used in contruction, not diamonds or rubies). The fire is the persecution of the church. (not the Bema Seat judgement). Thus, all doctrine is tested by the fire of persecution.

Paul's point is that leaders must teach the truth of the coming persecution of Christians. All who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. The test of the truthfulness of their teaching will be how well their followers stand for the faith in the midst of persecution. If they "abide" in the faith, they (their teachers) will receive a reward in heaven for the faithfulness of their teaching. If all fall away, they suffer the loss of the reward, though they, themselves, are still saved, if they did, in fact, stand fast during the persecution (fire).

I think if you read it closely you will see that is the context.

I (unlike Alex) believe every believer will have some gold, silver, or stone but many will build upon that foundation more with hay and stubble. I say everyone will have some measure though some may not have great amounts

I agree with you. If you apply that belief to the John 15 passage, then those that produce no fruit must be unbelievers. If you maintain all believers will produce some fruit, though at various levels.

I am only showing that this passage is more about the fruit or better our works and not about salvation. The implication is definately there and the continuation to abide is specific with due regard to those who are saved but the context is works or fruit and not specifically about salvation. Thus it shows a believer will maintain in faith but they might not continue to grow or maintain in works.

I'm not sure which passage you are refering to here. The John 15 passage is clearly demonstrating that disciples of Christ are proved to be so by the fruit they produce.

Again, I appreciate your post and the thoughts expressed.

peace to youraying:

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Abiding in Christ: The Real Meaning Confronts an Error of Calvinism

John 15:1-8

The confusion of Calvinism brings to many, misguided ends regarding the proper understanding of Bible texts. One well known and often cited text that is claimed by a “Dominant Majority” (DM and from here on in the post I refer to the DM and not every single Calvinist) of Calvinists to purportedly support their doctrine of “Perseverance” is John 15, the True Vine and Branches passage.

The Calvinist takes the position that the branches that do not bear fruit and are “aken away” (v1) and/or “cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (v6) were never “really” believers or those belonging to Christ (the true vine) in the first place.

Their contention is that only true believers will be fruit bearing branches and evidence that branches that do not bear fruit aren’t really believers stems (no pun intended) from:

A. They didn’t bear fruit because they didn’t abide in Christ.
B. They are removed and described as branches good for only burning.

The Calvinist appeals to the idea that if a believer is truly one of Christ’s then he will abide in Christ and bear fruit because no true believer would be removed and treated as that which is only good to be burned as kindling wood. Right?

John MacArthur’s thoughts reflect this view:
But since this is not a treatment of the erring Calvinist view but of the text, let’s look at the text and find the problems and solutions regarding what it says:
John 15:1-8
The context of this lesson by our Lord is a post-seasonable dressing of the vineyard, right before the dormant season when the most severe pruning occurs (determined by the reference to withered branches use for burning that were cut off during this time).

______________
1. Verse 1 is without dispute among Calvinist and non-Calvinist as to its meaning. Hence its treatment is minimal. God the Son is the means of life and fruit for the branches and God the Father is the one that keeps the vineyard.

2. Verse 2 begins with “every branch in me that beareth not fruit”. Obviously to the undistracted observer the first problem for the Calvinist view is a branch being in Christ and then being determined to not have actually been in Christ but “superficially attached”. To claim the attachment was not real but superficial violates the claim of Christ Himself, which the branch “is” in Him. And any branch that is in any vine, especially here, begins its life directly from that vine as a sprout unless it is grafted and here NOTHING about grafting is presented (and even the Calvinist argument doesn’t present a grafting debate).

A branch begins its life IN THE VINE and grows from the vine as a sprout. It does not become a branch until it has grown to some extent. And from that vine it did gain sustenance and life. If indeed this branch really was never “truly” attached then how did it sprout from the vine? How did it grow from a sprout to a branch? From whence did its nourishment come to become a branch? From the vine.

You see the dire straights the Calvinist is in here?

Of course the end of the life and purpose of a branch isn’t just to be a sprout or a branch but eventually to bear fruit. Hence the reason our Lord implores believers to “abide” in Him.

Believers that experience some growth (but not to mature purpose) are described aptly as ones that do not abide in Christ. They, at some point, quit getting their nourishment from Christ and fail to bear fruit.

But imagine the Calvinist trying to, in hoping to support his erring doctrine of perseverance, that though this branch clearly is presented as "in" Christ as are fruit bearing branches, and though for it to have come to life it had to spring from the vine and grow, it never really was attached to the vine. Talk about DRAMATIC CONTRADICTIONS and confusion.

3. Verse 4 presents the command from Jesus to believers “abide in me”. There is a significant and telling clue in the Greek grammar here that provides conclusive evidence that abiding is NOT talking about SALVATION but about the post-salvational RELATIONSHIP of the believer to Christ.

The command “abide” is a 2nd Person Plural Aorist Active Imperative.

The use of the “active” in the Greek means that the subject performs the action of the verb. The subject of the command “abide in me” is the plural “you”. Jesus is commanding “(You) abide in me”.

In other words, the abiding is NOT done by Jesus but by the believer, hence that is why Jesus commands the believer to do the abiding. Jesus doesn't command you to do something He does. Jesus died for your sins, that is what He does and did and the command to you is to believe.

And in salvation, Jesus KEEPS you saved, that is His job and it is YOUR job to maintain the relationship through obedience, i.e. positive volition to Christ.

So since the command given by Jesus for the believer to do the abiding, the Calvinist is faced with saying that here, that it is up to the BELIEVER to keep themselves saved (since they argue abiding refers to Salvation and not Relationship) and if they don’t abide, well they weren’t really saved or lost their salvation.

In truth, the reality is that the command represents that we, as believers, can choose to NOT abide, hence the very purpose of the command. The reason we are given commands is because alternative are possible and here the context of the command is for believers to abide, understanding that in the context of a believer's life NOT ABIDING is the alternative. And if only “true” believers did abide and did not choose to NOT abide, then what is the purpose of the command if by default all believers are guaranteed to abide.

Why? Because not all believers ARE guaranteed to abide. But the Calvinist, here, is faced with a dilemma.

If they admit what is present in the text, particularly in the active voice where the believer is commanded to be the one that abides as opposed to Christ keeping them, they have to admit that it is not a SALVATIONAL context but a RELATIONAL context because in a SALVATIONAL context Christ does the keeping and in a RELATIONAL context, we are responsible for maintaining fellowship. For an exhaustive treatment I recommend this article, Viticulture and John 15:1-6 by Gary W. Derickson , Associate Professor of Biblical Studies, Western Baptist College.

And yet 1 peter 1:5 tells us that our salvation is "kept" by God's Power not our own.

In 1 John 2:19 he writes that those that left the church left because they were not one of them. If they had been they would have stayed. I disagree with irresistbale grace but those of the Reformed Theology are spot on with regards to this.

 

[psalms109:31]

Kept

We are kept by God's power through faith.

When it comes to being cut out it is being cut out from being His child. To those who believed He gave them the right to be children of God.

It is those who endure to the end that will be saved. Trusting in the Faith that God has given to us through His word. We are kept by God through His word not our own, so we are depending on God that those who believe shall be saved.

If God didn't know who they were He wouldn't be God.

 

[MB]

And yet 1 peter 1:5 tells us that our salvation is "kept" by God's Power not our own.

In 1 John 2:19 he writes that those that left the church left because they were not one of them. If they had been they would have stayed. I disagree with irresistbale grace but those of the Reformed Theology are spot on with regards to this.

Good scriptural support Amen.
MB

 

[webdog]

It is those who endure to the end that will be saved. Trusting in the Faith that God has given to us through His word. We are kept by God through His word not our own, so we are depending on God that those who believe shall be saved.

This phrase seems to be contradictory. At first you state that those who endure will be saved...but then we are dependant on God to be saved. Which is it? Do we need to endure...or do we need to depend on God?

 

[reformedbeliever]

This phrase seems to be contradictory. At first you state that those who endure will be saved...but then we are dependant on God to be saved. Which is it? Do we need to endure...or do we need to depend on God?

yes...........................................................

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Faith my brother enduring to the end trusting in God our Father through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter what men may say or not say trust in the words of our Lord not the words of men.